Possible diatonic accordion simulation on the Korg FISA?!

[J. Eduardo]

Looks like there is a MIDI parameter on the FISA actually send out bellows direction. That would mean you could use the MIDI through the computer to have it behave like a diatonic if you want to.

Now if only they would make one on the size of a 1xb and I could find an accordion library with Latin American tunings...

 

[SteveBox]

That would be quite large and heavy compared to most diatonic accordions. Roland had a diatonic digital once, the FR-18, but it was discontinued.

 

[Ventura]

i think he means, for fun purposes like "Stupid pet Trips"
if you can send the bellows direction out, then you can
process that info and use it to trigger a diatonic "key flip"
of sorts that would shift the pitch basically of notes you play
through the computers midi-out sound source target device
in real time, effectively creating a diatonic simulator from
the Korg

if you can turn local off in the Korg, you might also
be able to use the sound generator in the Korg in
real time by sending the "loop" of MIDI re-processed data back
in to the Korg

definitely not practical, but possibly fun and useful
for practice for some people

 

[Airy]

Looks like there is a MIDI parameter on the FISA actually send out bellows direction. That would mean you could use the MIDI through the computer to have it behave like a diatonic if you want to.

Now if only they would make one on the size of a 1xb and I could find an accordion library with Latin American tunings...

You may get quickly into restrictions with the bass buttons. At least in the free bass modes of the Roland‘s there are redundant buttons / notes. Therefore the „translation“ algorithm cannot tell from these notes in which column/row you are pressing the button.
I‘m not sure if this will also apply for stradella modes if you ignore the counter bass buttons. But then at least the „translation“ algorithm has to be more advanced because it has to „decrypt“ chords to column/row information.

But because the Korg is new and the brave guys behind are probably still wanting and listening to customer request, try to find enough supporters for your idea so Roland may add a „unique MIDI note on each button“ mode to the bass.

PS: I was just asking myself because I play piano style accordion: doesn‘t the treble side of CBAs have the same problem with redundant notes?

 

[SteveBox]

I would expect that every button on the Korg has a separate sensor, otherwise, they cannot support multiple CBA and bass layouts. So any button implementation is possible, if Korg provides a programming option. The diatonic thing is an interesting idea. Although the Korg is large and heavy compared to most diatonics, not so much compared to the larger Steirische Harmonikas. If there is enough demand, maybe one might convince Korg to add a diatonic option.

 

[kep]

So any button implementation is possible, if Korg provides a programming option.

That was rather Proxima functionality. Implemented in their Editor, you can check it.

 

[Ventura]

while it is noted that the bellows direction can be sent
out as a simple piece of midi data, and is therefore isolated
and can be used in any manner one could program external
midi-flow/control/mapping one wants, it is not evident
that such can be re-programmed inside the parameters
of the internal FISA control software

internally, there are several note-mapping/chording schemes
pre-programmed in to the FISA, however it is not evident
that a user could access the data or re-map it to their own
scheme, but yes obviously KORG could craft any re-map
imaginable if they can be convinced of it's potential use/value

however, any outboard re-mapping program could easily be
set to watch for this midi note that midi note and re-map it to a
different midi note or notes based on the direction of the bellows data
as the trigger for this "on the fly" change

but internally, one must have a set of user-accessible software hooks,
an interface into the relevant system area, and an area of memory
available to store such, and a way to make it the default upon
boot-up of the Fisa..

they may have considered this, but all the available computing power
and resources of these devices may already be spoken for.

for example, there are quite a few tuning schemes built into the Roland,
but they allow a user to also micro-manage any tuning scheme
they care to imitate or even create from scratch, save it and implement it.

so until we get these FISA's into our hands, and find out more about their
actual software, and what areas are user accessible, wanting more choices
than they come with may be counter-productive (for now) but testing theories
by crafting external programming that can exploit the available streamed data
may help make the case (in other words a diatonic virtual working model
on a 24" computer monitor with a virtual instrument Ramon Ayala sound-font
inside your PC and played in real time from the FISA as a controller)

 

[Airy]

however, any outboard re-mapping program could easily be
set to watch for this midi note that midi note and re-map it to a
different midi note or notes based on the direction of the bellows data
as the trigger for this "on the fly" change

Don‘t think it is just remapping. Think of pressing a button constantly but reversing bellows. AFAIK in „normal“ CBA or PA mode the keyboard-processor (at least of the Roland family) will not send a new note off / note on sequence. But in diatonic it has to do so.

 

[Ventura]

ah..

interesting point

so i think you mean a note can be held on while the bellows are changing direction
therefore the change of direction must also be able to reassign the note without
separate note on note off events

and it would seem the Korg cannot do that itself at this time

so just remapping through a computer will not be quite as straightforward
as i had thought to emulate a diatonic accurately. Fortunately outboard
processing power is fast and plentiful and an added intercept and adjusted
matched volume/expression finessing should be possible without
too much noticeable artifacts being left.

 

[SteveBox]

therefore the change of direction must also be able to reassign the note without
separate note on note off events

The external MIDI processor would have to know which pair of diatonic notes map to each of the Korg MIDI notes and send the appropriate one depending on the current bellows direction. It would also need to remember which notes are currently "ON" and their velocity. When it receives a change in the bellows direction, it would send an "OFF" for each of these notes followed by a new "ON" plus velocity for each of the alternate notes. Quite possible, but it would require one of the more sophisticated MIDI processors, or some custom programming.

A little crazy that this product is not yet released, and already we want to make it do something it was not intended to do.

 

[Airy]

so just remapping through a computer will not be quite as straightforward
as i had thought to emulate a diatonic accurately. Fortunately outboard
processing power is fast and plentiful and an added intercept and adjusted
matched volume/expression finessing should be possible without
too much noticeable artifacts being left.

I‘m afraid this will lead to an hen-egg-problem:
As long as there is not such a translation app out there it would not make any sense for Korg (or Roland etc) to offer an unique-Midi-note-per-button mode. And if there is no redless CBA out there which can send unique notes plus bellows direction controller nobody will volunteer to write that app.

And as the discontinuing of the Roland FR-18 shows there seems not a sufficient demand in the market to do any investments in this regard. And I can imagine why:

Diatonic accordions are mostly lightweight and very portable, and the music styles they are typically involved in won‘t really profit from switching or layering sounds like some of us do with the current e-accordions. The only wish I heard diatonic players saying was: „Give me an diatonic box which can play in ALL keys!“

 

[J. Eduardo]

The only wish I heard diatonic players saying was: „Give me an diatonic box which can play in ALL keys!“

I think that you hear that from Mexican norteño / US tejano types who now tend to play with three row FBbEb Hohner Corona II or Gabbanellis but historically played in GCF and more recently adopt a few more keys. They are the ones who mostly need to carry several accordions around for gigs if they want to play in the original keys. Note that generally an MM configuration with a certain tuning is expected.

Beyond this, however, the place that en e-accordion can theoretically help is if you want to sound traditional in a variety of genres. Dominican merengue, for example. has historically preferred two-row Ericas in BbEb with a reed configuration which is mostly MM but then has several notes that are HM. If you want to play Colombian vallenato, now you are mostly looking at a Corona III LMM configuration in BbEbAb tuned more sharply. So if you want to perform these genres invoking the traditional sounds you need keys, reed configurations and tuning differences.

The Fr-18 was a first generation box for Roland - they never added an internal speaker or updated the bellows control for them (no"x" version), so while lack of profit played a role, I think there is something to be said for not understanding the market and improving the product. With the growth in tutorials in all these genres, I see a small but steady stream of players asking for a box like the fr-18 and being disappointed when the find it discontinued.

My original post was merely to call out the bellows direction parameter that Roland never gave the programmer access to but Korg didn't have a problem providing. Of course, the size makes it none to practical to use in diatonic mode, but I'm enjoying the discussion and hope that it gets some Korg folks thinking if they decide to offer a smaller box.

 

[Airy]

Don‘t think it is just remapping. Think of pressing a button constantly but reversing bellows. AFAIK in „normal“ CBA or PA mode the keyboard-processor (at least of the Roland family) will not send a new note off / note on sequence. But in diatonic it has to do so.

In case someone is interested, we have the same / a similar discussion in the thread 'Remap the Roland Fr1xB with Kontakt to use it as a Steirische Harmonika'
https://www.accordionists.info/thre...t-as-a-steirische-harmonika.10247/post-137238

 

[CPez]

Once again. I’m here. On the site. When I get home from this trip, just tell me what to check out and I’ll do it. Everyone on this site asks questions into the air when I have one sitting in my room