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putting 'lift' into dance music

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I'm still knitting fog when it comes to 'lift' :roll: Lots of fine words and opinions in this thread but still no sign of a definitive example of the same tune, with and without lift :(

Fergie was enjoying himself ...don't think he does much refereeing these days
 
Having lift in the Scottish dance band scene is seen as essential to encourage dancers to dance energetically for many hours. Having lift is probably not easy to define and is probably in the ear of the individual listener. However emphasis of the offbeat has already been mentioned in this thread and its certainly an important part in the make up of Scottish bands. A 2nd. accordion is often used to highlight the offbeat, as well as the right hand of a piano player. Polka 2/4 type tunes are popular in Scotland and one broadcast on BBC Scotland last night stands as a good example of the emphasis of the offbeat on a 2nd accordion. The programme was Take the Floor and the player (and composer) was Charlie Kirkpatrick. The 2nd accordion player is on the left of the stereo spectrum.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/izoxo40x8ikkvl9/StillGoingStrong.mp3?dl=0
 
Two problems
... couldn't identify a second accordion playing (I mentioned elsewhere that I have cloff ear syndrome, innit :roll: )

... this 'off beat' stuff is beyond my simple ken, ye ken ;)

I'll watch with interest but meantime I'll do a Sid James and Carry on Regardless :D
 
Oh Bocsa, that was a challenge I couldnt resist, although actually getting it on to Youtube was harder than making it! There must be an easier way, and Ill keep looking for that, because theres so much we could do on here to help folk with little problems.

Anyway - I made the little video below, playing a couple of tunes without lift (which is a LOT harder than it looks when youre not used to it!) then repeating them with some lift in them - hope that helps to show what I mean.

I see from the video that Im a front runner in the most glum looking box player of the year competition - why do we all do that? I was laughing like hell inside :D

I left the mistakes in so you know its genuine......

 
I think I can catch the second accordion, its quite subtle. I don't know how to describe it, but if i were dancing a polka, and I ain't much good at polkering, I think it would dead easy to get the one, two, three, hop/lift of the dance. Nice.

At our French/Breton Folky dance club, we had Dave Shepard and Anna Pack( Fiddle and Diatonic Accordion) come and play for us, a good selection of Breton and French tunes, bourrees, mazurkas, schottish, gavottes and so on. Excellent. In the context of this thread it was so interesting wathcing how they changed places, the fiddle playing the melody and the accordion provding rhythm in one section and the roles reversed in the next. I suppose they know the music and the dances and are generally damn fine musicians, they seemed to find the lift and bounce and fun instinctively...a pleasure to dance to. On the other hand, the first set played by the house band was very flat. The mazurka was as soft and floppy as over cooked spaghetti, a couple of the other tunes went quite well, the two newish schottish were quite good but, oh, I don't know it just didn't come together... disappointing. The second set was much better, the tunes were old favourites rather than new discoveries, I think it shows, that knowing a tune inside out and up side down really helps...

and finally, most people like live music, our neighbours say the nicest things about the most average of playing.
 
Thanks very much for that Rancoman, you made it easy to hear the difference twixt the flat (as in straight and level) versions and the 'with feeling' ones. I won't hazard a guess at the technicalities, main thing is I can hear a difference :b

Something for me to have a play around with, I have some free time over the next few weeks when I'm wandering around France in search of the wine lake ;)
(me favourite Speyside malt (0.7ltr)was only 17€ with 1€ remise last time ... pre-Brexit vote

Thanks once again for taking the time and the trouble.
 
My pleasure, Bocsa - AND it made me get off my botty and do something constructive. I'm glad you can hear what I was getting at, and the technique is quite simple - you increase the volume where you choose, by giving the bellows an extra dunt (you can actually see me doing it in the video) and you can also add more emphasis by playing a small chord, either just two notes, or an octave note - you can also see me doing that at times.

I think it also helps in some cases if you know the tune, particularly the words, because that gives you the clue where to dunt. For example, in the waltz I played called The Nameless Lassie' the first two lines are:
'There's none will ever guess or try
the Nameless Lassie's name'

If I retype that, with a '/' where the bar breaks in the music would be, emphasise where I type in bold and you will get the effect easily. I hope...

There's/NANE will/EVer/ GUESS or/ TRY--
the/ NAMEless/ LASSie's NA--/AMe

In other words, the dunt is when you use the fundamental bass, not the chord in that particular tune. It might not be the same for other tunes - I'll think more about that and see what I can come up with.

Enjoy your swim in the wine lake :ch
 
Nice job Rancoman, that clearly demonstrated the idea. I liked your location for the video too, outside and something different from the usual living room videos.

Now that you've worked out how to do this, you've no excuse to not put more youtubes up ;)
 
Perhaps it might be helpfull to look back to a time before accordions, when keyboard instruments had little or no volume control and much dance music was played on instruments that inherently do not have any dynamic range... like bagpipes.

If one cannot create lift emphasis by changes of loudness then there is an almost complete reliance on rhythm and measure. So, the way one plays the melody has to be addressed first. A steady 'external rhythm'( the length of each bar etc) is of primary importance, of course, but it is the 'internal rhythm' that can give lift and grace to the music. That subtle lengthening and shortening of notes within the bar, the gaps between , the use of grace notes to emphasis rhythm.

Unfortunately Staff and ABC notation is not subtle enough to give an idea of Internal Rhythm and of course the style of emphasis varies greatly between genres and individual musicians. Perhaps the best way is to listen and these days it is easy to take a recording and slow it down to a speed that one's ear can detect the differences in note length. Listen carefully for the way a musician 'weights' the rhythm by altering the note lengths.

I lived for many years in the west of Ireland, beyond the guitar belt, where sessions ( not gigs) usually consisted of fiddles, flutes, concertinas and whistles. Playing with the OLD people was an education in lift. That, now passed on, generation had played great dance music with out the aid ( or hindrance) of rhythm strummers. In comparison, when I listen to the younger crowd, who have grown up in sessions where rhythm control is given to the guitarist, I often detect a flatness to their melody playing. Now I'm not saying there is anything wrong with having accompaniment, just not to use it as a crutch.

Now, in France and playing mostly French dance music I notice that those novice bands , which often get a chance for stage experience during a Bal, exhibit a timidity which results in a very flat performance. Usually they are playing a tune 'at the same time' but not together... they are looking for the measure, the pace, not able to lock-in together .

I am fairly new to the accordion and really enjoying the possibilites, especially in dance music. After many years of playing the English Concertina, which has no dedicated rhythm section and relies on the player to keep the time firmly in their head, or foot, it is so much fun to realise how much can be done between the left and right hands on the accordion.

PS. just a quick example of this note length adjustment; in the playing of 6/8 Jigs there are 6 quavers to the bar, in two groups. If one ascribes note lengths in numbers to each of these the bar could look like 5-2-3, 5-2-3. So, the first note is longest, the second is shortest and the third is somewhere between. This is just the way I think about it and the actual note length values may differ, from player to player. This is what is known as 'Gimp' in Irish Trad Music . The same thing can be done with any dance measure to aid lift.
 
another ingredient that can help generate 'lift' is playing 'long and short notes' i.e instead of playing of playing eg 4 quarter notes the same just pinch a little bit off one and add it to the next one.
A trick used on British Chromatic boxes is what I think of as a quick 'back flick' - i.e as there are two different notes on every button a very quick 'back flick' of the bellows with bring in a tiny bit of the buttons 'other' note. It can be imitated on a piano box but does not come entirely free of of charge like it does on the 'diatonics'

george
 
George,
What you're expressing in your last entry is close to what pipers (I'm thinking Scottish here but I'm sure it's not exclusive) express. i.e. dotted/extended notes and halved notes in phrasing is utterly essential as is trilling an adjacent note briefly which in piping terms I believe is referred to as a grace note. Accordionists here try to emulate both effects. Button accordions, because of their construction, are perceived as being better at achieving the pipe effect but the piano accordion, in good hands, is very effective; players such as Colin Dewar or Michael Phillips can raise the hairs on the back of the neck in this genre.
 
yes- something on those lines but perhaps sometimes more subtle than playing as dotted/halved in that the bit chopped off or added on can be much shorter than can be shown on sheet music

There were two programmes on Scottish radio to mark Jimmy Shands 100th anniversary and the very well known piano box player Jack Emblow was was interviewed by phone. Jack did a vast amount of work with very well known artists and for the BBC and also played for the programme 'sing something simple' for over 30 years. For some reason he was called in to back Jimmy Shand for two London recordings. Lilly of Laguna and I think Whistling Rufus.

The interviewer asked Jack if he had learned anything from Jimmy . Jack replied on the lines of ' he taught me how to play long and short notes , a very useful lesson that only took a few minutes.

Perhaps somebody has recorded that programme and can quote the precise words used?
george
 
Good to see some interest in this topic, but it's SO hard to convey in words what we're talking about to someone who can't already do it. It's such a HUGE subject in words, but when you do it on the keyboard, the little things we are talking about are over in a fraction of a second. I noticed a comment from a post saying the writer had difficulty in picking out the second box in a recent broadcast. I completely understand that - been there - although now I can pick out all of the instruments individually, after many years hard listening. I have 150 C90 tapes of Scottish dance music from the 80's to 90's -mainly the 'Take the Floor' broadcasts, and I must have worn them out over the years listening to them all over and over.

I think what WE need to do is sit down and make short recordings, demonstrating what we mean, if we are to be any REAL help to those who are trying to learn.

I'll put my money where my mouth is and try to sort one out tonight dealing with note length, emphasis and grace notes.

What are YOU two going to do? :mrgreen:
 
You can also add "lift" with volume. For example, Tennessee Waltz (or any other waltz) I / was waltzING/ with my darLING/ to the TEN/nes-EE/ ... caps indicating an uplift in volume - but actually each measure is a melodic increase in volume from the first beat to the last. Doesn't have to, and shouldn't be huge increase, but noticeable.
 
I was told years ago, not to focus on our music gear and instruments, but on your audience. They pay the bills! Yes it is nice to buy the latest and greatest accordion, but it is more for self satisfaction.
 
George,
I agree totally that music notation alone can specify the the length a note should be played. Though I don’t play the bagpipes (we’ve got nice neighbours) I do listen to it and play it a lot on the accordion. Shortened (snapped) notes, dotted lengthened notes and grace notes are important to them and without it the music is bland. I’m sure the effect is not confined to bagpipers.
Jack Emblow is an accordionist much admired in Scotland. I’ve heard and enjoyed his music a few times ‘live’ here at accordion clubs and latterly visits when he paired with Tony Compton. I do remember his involvement with Jimmy Shand, both modest, unassuming men I would say, each respecting each others different styles. I don’t remember the broadcast you mention but I would be interested if somebody put it ‘up there’ so we can hear it.
Rancoman,
I noticed the comment too where the listener expressed difficulty in hearing the 2nd. accordion on the clip I posted. I chose the clip because I thought the 2nd. accordion was particularly prominent and was a good example of emphasising the offbeat (which is what I was trying to highlight.) The comment confirmed what I already thought ie. it’s all in the ear (or not) of the listener.
 
Aye, how quickly we forget how WE were when we started, eh? All this chat takes me back to my early days when 7th chords and the like were a complete mystery to me. (Friends say they still are!)

I haven't had a chance to do another video yet as my trusty iPhone-holding assistant has been away, but I will as soon as I get a chance. I noticed on the 3/4 timing subject there is scope for a wee demo - putting the emphasis on the first beat as we generally do in Scottish music, the second, as in French (and the Tenessee waltz, I noticed). There may even be music where the emphasis is on the third beat, but I haven't though of any as yet. I suspect, although I'm not sure, that the choice of beat to emphasise is determined by the dance it's played for, to suit the steps - maybe someone can clarify this?

As a non-sight reader I can't comment on whether it's possible for the dots to accurately set out how a tune should be played - I would imagine they could give you a pretty good guide, but the finished article will still be influenced by the individual playing the piece - I think!

I posted on a thread about practice this morning, and something else struck me. I genuinely don't think it's possible to play a VERY fast piece fully consciously - I have a feeling it must be programmed into our brains somehow, by practice? Maybe a virtuoso could?

I find my left hand works on autopilot - I generally have no idea what it's doing, so that must be controlled from a different part of my brain from the keyboard side. I can consciously change it if I choose, but unless I choose to do it, it just follows whatever I do with my right hand. Even the right hand must be automatic in some way - when I play something fast with a lot of grace notes, I don't think there's any way I could do it consciously at that speed.

Any thoughts?
 
I think the same goes for everybody as far as needing an 'autopilot' route down the arm to the fingers from the brain .
Certainly If I try to think about what I am doing when playing reasonably fast a cock up is an absolute certainty!

I also find it difficult to avoid the odd cock up when playing a tune slowly for teaching purposed . Perhaps its something to do with the use of conscious thought buggers up the autopilot part of the brain ( processor)

george
 
Spot on, George, I think. When you've played for a while, the music is programmed in somewhere subconscious in your brain as you normally play it. When we are doing something different, such as playing slowly, I suspect we are using a different part of our brains - the conscious part - and that is sooooooo hard. Possibly the conscious part is the bit beginners use at first, which might be why they have trouble, until they have played a piece so often that it transfers to the autoplay bit.

I'll try to get another wee recording made tonight, but it might be a budget production special, recorded in the bathroom with the iPhone propped on the toilet roll holder!
 
rancoman said:
Spot on, George, I think. When youve played for a while, the music is programmed in somewhere subconscious in your brain as you normally play it. When we are doing something different, such as playing slowly, I suspect we are using a different part of our brains - the conscious part - and that is sooooooo hard. Possibly the conscious part is the bit beginners use at first, which might be why they have trouble, until they have played a piece so often that it transfers to the autoplay bit.

Ill try to get another wee recording made tonight, but it might be a budget production special, recorded in the bathroom with the iPhone propped on the toilet roll holder!


? rattling bog!

george ;)
 
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