Roland Editor crashing on certain Set

[KenWhelan]

Hi all,
I'm having a strange issue with one Set on a Roland FR-8X.
I've bought the Nijkamp Gola set and it plays really well.
However when I browse to the set using the Roland editor I lose connection.
This happens EVERY time.
Every other set is working fine.
Has anyone else experienced this?

 

[JerryPH]

Why not contact the people you bought it from and ask… or if you are comfortable with it, I could look at the file and see if it does the same on my 8X and see if I could resolve it.

 

[Vladimir]

I think i have same issue. I have bought second hand accordion in Netherlands and it was loaded with the sets and user programs that are likely coming from Nijkamp. The editor is hanging on EVERY set other than factory sets. I can normally use editor on the factory sets or in the empty slots where i created my sets.

Did you find the solution maybe? I like these settinga that i got with the accordion and it would be pitty to throw them away and purchase something else...

 

[JerryPH]

No, they install and work properly if you have their original files, but cannot be touched. They are either BRILLIANT at hiding what they do or messed up so bad that the editor cannot read their code and crashes.

 

[Vladimir]

I do not have original files, i have sets installed and i can export individual sets to USB and import them to different location. I can edit them on accordion, it is just PC Java app that is crashing when trying to access these sets. I am not sure if it is feature or bug, I sent the message to the shop selling these sets but no answer so far...

 

[Vladimir]

Ok, today i spent some time trying to figure out what is really going on. I am posting here my findings in case someone else have same problem at some point.

I copied one of the sets from the Nijkamp to other location but partially, first only accordion registara, then bass, then orchestra and others, and after each element group i tested if editor is crashing. It didn't crash until the moment i copied over Free Bass registers. Same happened with orchestra 2, these registers from the bad sets were crashing the editor. For the sake of the experiment, i copied over healthy Free Bass and orchestra 2 registers over one of the bad sets, and the editor did not crash anymore on that set.

I also noticed that all bad sets were using the same drum kit, legacy fr-7x one. I suppose that these sets were originally created for fr-7x and then converted and imported on fr-8x and probably something went wrong in that process, and it is also very possible that the java editor have some bug too.

In any case i know now what is the issue and i will work around it somehow.

 

[petros]

@Vladimir, good work !
I have the same issue with a set from Nijkamp. I would guess this is a bug from the editor. It looks like the editor is not maintained by Roland, since we are still running on the initial version. I have tried to get the SYSEX information from Roland support, but they are not willing to share.
IMHO it would be best if Roland would donate the editor to the public domain. That could be a win/win for both the community and Roland.

 

[Chris Laarman]

@Vladimir, good work !
I have the same issue with a set from Nijkamp. I would guess this is a bug from the editor. It looks like the editor is not maintained by Roland, since we are still running on the initial version. I have tried to get the SYSEX information from Roland support, but they are not willing to share.
IMHO it would be best if Roland would donate the editor to the public domain. That could be a win/win for both the community and Roland.

That SysEx could be the key. For those not too familiar with the MIDI protocol, from memory:

The MIDI protocol consists of Messages (commands). These messages can have different targets, like a Note On message is targeted at (whatever devices are receiving on) one MIDI Channel. However, the protocol provides targeting messages at devices from a certain manufacturer and even a certain model. The latter is up to the manufacturer to be managed. Such message will have a format like "The next 123 bytes will apply to Roland devices only", and every other device will redirect the next 123 bytes to null. Within the Roland SysEx, the message will have a format like "The next 80 bytes will apply to FR-8X devices only", and all other Roland devices will redirect the next 80 bytes to null.

So, think of the (four) situations where FR-7X and FR-8X share a model number (or not) and whether they are alike (or not) in the memory space addressed and the processor instruction set. Then add coding the Editor to the reasoning. One typo or missed "search and replace" could screw the running the program up. - Like an FR-8X watching all these FR-7X SysEx messages passing by, or complaining "I can't write to hat memory location. It's read-only".

I don't see Roland's manufacturer ID nor its own model ID mentioned in the MIDI Implementation Chart on p122 of the FR-8X manual.

(Note that I myself don't have an FR-8X, just an FR-1XB.)

 

[Ventura]

Chris has the idea

this is basically how we hacked the FR3x to get piano's and vibes and
such by exporting a 7x patch that took advantage of the common
"location targets" in the 3x software

as far as the Nijkamp issue, it is also possible that they figured out
a way to hide an error in their patches so that you can't export and give
them away to non-paying 3rd parties.. poison pill so to speak..
kind of like the anti-pirating code in a DVD

 

[Chris Laarman]

Chris has the idea

this is basically how we hacked the FR3x to get piano's and vibes and
such by exporting a 7x patch that took advantage of the common
"location targets" in the 3x software

as far as the Nijkamp issue, it is also possible that they figured out
a way to hide an error in their patches so that you can't export and give
them away to non-paying 3rd parties.. poison pill so to speak..
kind of like the anti-pirating code in a DVD

Yes, that "poison pill" might apply!

 

[petros]

No, I do not believe this. I know that Nijkamp does most of the editing on the accordion, rather than with the editor.
If I understood correctly, they have reported the crashing set to Roland support , without making much progress.
I think the key here is with Roland support. If they would provide SYSEX specs for FR-models or publish the code for the editor, this would be half of the solution.
Decompiling or reverse engineering is a hell of a job.

 

[Ventura]

then Njjkamp uses a very different process from me..

i mean standard practice even if you are writing a letter in WordStar
is to auto save every few minutes

if Nijkamp WANTED this set not to crash, they would just go back
to their last good save that did not crash, and then NOT DO the next
edit they made (presumably the culprit) then finish the set changes

no reverse engineering needed ! it was their set their "engineering"
so to speak

so i do believe Nijkamp is quite content that their set crashes,
since they could surely fix their own "source code/original edits"
if they wanted to

 

[Chris Laarman]

No, I do not believe this. I know that Nijkamp does most of the editing on the accordion, rather than with the editor.
If I understood correctly, they have reported the crashing set to Roland support , without making much progress.
I think the key here is with Roland support. If they would provide SYSEX specs for FR-models or publish the code for the editor, this would be half of the solution.
Decompiling or reverse engineering is a hell of a job.

I'd think that intercepting the data sent to the recorder (from the device with the editor) would be enough (for finding the model ID of the FR-8X. Remember: that ID (and Roland's) must be transmitted. The code of the editor would hardly matter.

If the FR-8X should be capable of backing up to, say, USB sticks (I'm not checking that now), then the model ID would likely be in those data, too.

 

[Ventura]

i remember decades ago wanting to "clone" all the settings
from my primary Sound Canvas to a new spare SC i acquired,
and it wouldn't accept the string of data until i hacked a file
sent from the new SC and compared them in binary..

that's when i first saw and understood Sysex and then wrote in the
changes and successfully had my (backup) clone

i still use a SC for Bass and Chords when i use the rack with
the VK8m.. i like the sound better than what is in the Roland for Bass
and Rhodes, as you can't get the internal sounds separated from
their bellows or velocity enough to tone them down for my tastes

 

[petros]

I have only access to an FR-8X.
I have seen that SYSEX starts with:
F0 41 10 00 00 00 39 ....
F0 = start of SYSEX
41 = Roland
10 = Model-ID
I figured that out while ago when I was sorting out how to select a register (within a SET).
With MIDI you can select a SET or UPG, but after selecting a SET,you cannot select a register.
That can be done via SYSEX command (the editor is doing this too).
I cannot verify for an FR-7