Should I be learning CBA?

[OuijaBoard]

I just caught up with your note that you didn't think about trying your Concerto II. I suggest you try this before making any other moves. They are nice and light considering the excellent note range and complement of basses. Isn't yours an "S"? The "S" has slightly slimmer keys and is thus a more compact package. Perhaps you'll find your 2-voice Concerto II "S" is fine and dandy! The 2-voice Concertos do feel noticeably lighter than the 3-voice package.

 

[dak]

Another thought:


Honestly, if weight and bulk are really getting to you . . . you might consider English Concertina. Seriously. I believe in the folk use-cases you've described here, EC is welcomed and loved. They are light, portable, and playable in all keys. Huge chordal possibilities as well. Classic Morris instruments, too! The system is no harder to learn than CBA, and you could keep your PAs in your life.

Classical instrument, for sure.

 

[Rosie C]

Another thought:


Honestly, if weight and bulk are really getting to you . . . you might consider English Concertina. Seriously. I believe in the folk use-cases you've described here, EC is welcomed and loved. They are light, portable, and playable in all keys. Huge chordal possibilities as well. Classic Morris instruments, too! The system is no harder to learn than CBA, and you could keep your PAs in your life.

All I know about them is the inlay notes on a Buz Collins album where he thanks the English Concertina player, because everyone knows how fiendishly difficult they are!

 

[Rosie C]

I just caught up with your note that you didn't think about trying your Concerto II. I suggest you try this before making any other moves. They are nice and light considering the excellent note range and complement of basses. Isn't yours an "S"? The "S" has slightly slimmer keys and is thus a more compact package. Perhaps you'll find your 2-voice Concerto II "S" is fine and dandy! The 2-voice Concertos do feel noticeably lighter than the 3-voice package.

I think you're right - this is the next step. I was just struck this morning with a big question mark, am I on the right road. I think I am, but it's good to work through the options now, 5 months in, than look back in 5 years...

 

[Rosie C]

Playing in all keys:

PA: How often does the music you play reach below the "middle B" that is the lowest note on a 26-key PA?

I start about half the dances on the G below "middle B" ... but the dances are never more than 1 and a half octaves, so I think for every dance I can play an octave up without problem. I tend not to, to give the mandolin some space.

I am used to tweaking the melody for my recorder as that has a quite limited range, I struggle at times as some tunes are in Em and my recorder is in F so an important note is missing - and playing an octave up would break glassware!

CBA: An MM CBA with 30 notes lets you play in any key whatsoever with no black-key awkwardness in a smaller keyboard size than on a 30 or 34 key PA. But see, the weight considerations in my post above.

Basses (PA and CBA): How important is it for your use-case to have complete basses? In a band setting, do you need basses at all? Though, IIRC, some of your audio samples here have consisted of you providing basses and chords? If this is often your role . . . really, seems to me you want a bass setup that goes 12 across with at minimum major and minors, as with a 12X4.

Yes, this is often my role. The core band is mandolin/violin playing melody, drum providing the rhythm, leaving me the bass line and chordal harmony. I don't need dim or 7 chords, but I need at least Bb through to B on Stradella.

If you thought 26 treble could suffice, there is the Hohner Starlet 26/40 PA. Renowned for its light weight:

I like the look of that! Maybe later in the year I'll look around for one.

Thanks for all the advice everyone! Put my mind at ease and given me a route forwards!

 

[vivdunstan]

I'm newly learning the CBA, and loving the lightness. I have a 60 bass French (Maugein) C-system box, which has all the bass rows, but misses out the diminished, but can fudge it easily. The number of treble notes is comparable to my 72 bass piano accordion. And likewise the 60 bass notes plus diminished fudge matches up well. But it's much lighter and smaller.

However, as a long term piano accordionist and someone comfortable with a piano keyboard it is going to take me a very long time to get sufficiently comfortable on the new box. I can play some tunes by ear on it, but then usually have little idea what notes I'm playing! It's not something I can generally improvise harmonies on for example. Though as I've posted elsewhere here (and just yesterday too) I am delighted with the progress I've made with it since starting last June, working through tuition books, and practicing diligently the exercises.

I picked up the CBA because I wanted to set myself the challenge (I'd been playing PA for nearly 50 years), and was able to afford buying a good new instrument to work on. It has also worked out hugely because the different hand positions and finger movements seem to be giving me some fight back against my progressive neurological illness and loss of hand control from that. But I wasn't expecting that, and didn't start learning CBA with that goal in mind.

I also have a 48 bass PA alongside my 1981 72 bass PA. The former is much lighter, but I really miss some of the chords. For example Bm is my favourite key to play in. I can't play it on that box at all (8x6). I am used to making compromises on my 72 bass - e.g. jump from F#m down to C#! - but losing B isn't something I like at all, and it limits what I can play.

I wonder as others have said if a 12x4 48 bass PA box might be a good option for you if you can find a good one? Maybe secondhand. I would be very wary of recommending you switch to pure CBA, because I think from your past posts that you are very comfortable with the piano keyboard. But there are lighter PA boxes.

Good luck!

 

[cat]

All I know about them is the inlay notes on a Buz Collins album where he thanks the English Concertina player, because everyone knows how fiendishly difficult they are!

Well, for the record, english concertina is one of the "easier"/simpler systems - in that things are laid out very logically (like cba). Now, that is, IF a person hasn't spent a lifetime playing things like keyboards, woodwinds, strings, etc where we've come to expect "linear" scalar progression - adjacent notes next to each other - rather than alternating between hands!

 

[Rosie C]

However, as a long term piano accordionist and someone comfortable with a piano keyboard it is going to take me a very long time to get sufficiently comfortable on the new box.

Thanks for the reply! I think part of what triggered this sudden question was that I've only been learning a few months, so it's not too late to change.

I also have a 48 bass PA alongside my 1981 72 bass PA. The former is much lighter, but I really miss some of the chords. For example Bm is my favourite key to play in. I can't play it on that box at all (8x6). I am used to making compromises on my 72 bass - e.g. jump from F#m down to C#! - but losing B isn't something I like at all, and it limits what I can play.

I have come round to think a 48 bass is 'the way forward'. I bought my 72-bass LMM Concerto 3 for the better bass options and because it already had microphones installed. But I've not really played the 72-bass MM Concerto 2 since it arrived - they're very similar. So I'm thinking either a cheap 48 bass just for taking out and about, or maybe part-ex the Concerto 2 against a better 48 bass model, then I'll have two decent instruments that are quite different.

I wonder as others have said if a 12x4 48 bass PA box might be a good option for you if you can find a good one? Maybe secondhand. I would be very wary of recommending you switch to pure CBA, because I think from your past posts that you are very comfortable with the piano keyboard. But there are lighter PA boxes.

Good luck!

Thanks!

Edit: Yes, I'm fairly comfortable on a piano keyboard - passed my grade 3 classical piano exam just before Christmas! A 12x4 would be ideal, I was playing a 12-bass for a while and it didn't have Em. I managed to substitute a G fundamental and it sounded 'OK' but it was limiting. But I was chatting with a local accordion seller this morning (!) and he advised that generally it's the cheaper makes that do 12x4 and if I want a German instrument it would likely need to be 8x6. I suppose I could play the B (or B and F#) buttons on the counter-row. Hmm, I'll go and try that on my 72 bass in a moment

 

[nou]

Why English concertina, when duets exist? I started playing Hayden duet concertina exactly because I wanted to play accordion music on a smaller and lighter instrument. Largest duets rarely weight more than 3kg, my 66 button (range from F2 to E6) weights 2,25kg. When it comes to musical utility, it’s basically a single voice free bass. Haydens are also isomorphic, just like B-/C-system accordions, with dare I say the most logical note layout out there in the context of tonal music theory.

The main problem with Hayden concertinas is the price per note and waiting time, ranging from couple of months for 42 button Concertina Connection Peacock, through about a year for 70+ button Edward Jay’s 3d printed model, up to 5 years for Wim Wakker’s H1/H2 or Alex Holden’s custom build. But if you can wrap your head around less uniform but still manageable layout you can buy a vintage Crane duet, or if you feel bold enough, a near random assortement of buttons called a Maccann duet, also a vintage, which will have the best price per note.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Why EC when Duets exist? If you are playing lots of single-melody line dance-related folk tunes at dance speeds, i.e. at a clip, EC will play melody music significantly more rapidly and fluidly than a Duet, with less strain on the right hand than a Duet. Additionally, Duets with logical repeating-pattern layouts are thin on the ground, and acquiring a playable quality Hayden with a useful number of notesmeans a long wait and a hefty price tag.

If one wants a bass-chords-lefthand/melody-right-hand free reed instrument, a small PA or CBA is vastly more capable, available, and affordable.

 

[JEBrown]

I have played (72 bass) PA for about 5 years. Honestly, as an experience pianist beforehand, I can play be ear easily on that. Yes the bass arrangement helps with different keys for the harmonies, but I'm so familiar with the piano keyboard that I can easily transpose in RH too.

I've been teaching myself CBA on and off for a few months. It's really fun to learn, but I have to say that it goes quite slowly. I'm learning it more as a personal challenge than anything else. Right now I don't feel I'll ever be familiar enough with the layout to be able to play by ear easily, but I guess I just need to practice more.

So I'd say whether you pick up CBA depends on your familiarity with a piano keyboard, and how long you are willing to wait before being comfortable on the new instrument, as my experience is of a steep learning curve

 

[dak]

I have played (72 bass) PA for about 5 years. Honestly, as an experience pianist beforehand, I can play be ear easily on that. Yes the bass arrangement helps with different keys for the harmonies, but I'm so familiar with the piano keyboard that I can easily transpose in RH too.

I've been teaching myself CBA on and off for a few months. It's really fun to learn, but I have to say that it goes quite slowly. I'm learning it more as a personal challenge than anything else. Right now I don't feel I'll ever be familiar enough with the layout to be able to play by ear easily, but I guess I just need to practice more.

So I'd say whether you pick up CBA depends on your familiarity with a piano keyboard, and how long you are willing to wait before being comfortable on the new instrument, as my experience is of a steep learning curve

I don't think the learning curve is all that different from a piano keyboard. One difference is that you don't really have much of a variation in more or less difficult scales. You don't get easy beginner scales, you don't get obscure advanced scales. Previous work on a piano keyboard helps with rather little other than basic dexterity and abstract note knowledge. That can be frustrating.

 

[nou]

Why EC when Duets exist? If you are playing lots of single-melody line dance-related folk tunes at dance speeds, i.e. at a clip, EC will play melody music significantly more rapidly and fluidly than a Duet, with less strain on the right hand than a Duet. Additionally, Duets with logical repeating-pattern layouts are thin on the ground, and acquiring a playable quality Hayden with a useful number of notesmeans a long wait and a hefty price tag.

If one wants a bass-chords-lefthand/melody-right-hand free reed instrument, a small PA or CBA is vastly more capable, available, and affordable.

The OP’s context was CBA, so the same split of labour between RH and LH as duets, not Englishes, hence my comment. Englishes are very particular beasts and demand a completely different mindset than PAs, CBAs or duets. Also, within the overlap range (usually an octave) you can play on duets like you would on EC, and if you want to play any kind of polyphonic music on EC you’re in for some heavy mental and manual gymnastics. But yes, as I wrote, you have to pay premium for concertinas portability, and then wait long, long time.

 

[OuijaBoard]

The OP’s context was CBA, so the same split of labour between RH and LH as duets, not Englishes, hence my comment. Englishes are very particular beasts and demand a completely different mindset than PAs, CBAs or duets. Also, within the overlap range (usually an octave) you can play on duets like you would on EC, and if you want to play any kind of polyphonic music on EC you’re in for some heavy mental and manual gymnastics. But yes, as I wrote, you have to pay premium for concertinas portability, and then wait long, long time.

You asked, I answered. You have every right to your viewpoint. I'll stick with mine.

 

[Rosie C]

I didn't buy it, but I did spend 15 minutes playing a CBA this afternoon, courtesy of Nigel at Fair Price Accordions. A 5-row, C-griff system (see, I know all the lingo now!). Intriguing! I think I will get one at some point, but I can see that at the moment changing would set me back considerably in my learning.