Taking the plunge, Roland FR-4xb

[dak]

I have been meaning to buy an FR4xb in order to try to tweak it so it produces a believable accordion sound matching that of some of my acoustic accordions, but alas I have not been able to find a used FR4xb for the amount of money I think it's worth and the amount I'm willing to pay for it (considering it is now 8 year old technology).

Makes me wonder about the technology in your acoustic accordions...

Semiconductors have an expected lifetime of centuries, but it seems like anything built with them is considered obsolete within five years. People used valve radios for longer than that.

 

[debra]

Makes me wonder about the technology in your acoustic accordions...

Semiconductors have an expected lifetime of centuries, but it seems like anything built with them is considered obsolete within five years. People used valve radios for longer than that.

Good points...
The technology in acoustic accordions is pretty mature and stable. When I open up a very recent accordion and compare it to what I see in a similar accordion from 40 years ago, everything is pretty much still the same. There are no significant advancements in the technology used. There is the move to somewhat lighter materials and pure wood instead of celluloid cover, but other than that it's all the same. There are technological advances in the electronics, rendering accordions with midi from 30 years ago obsolete, and I wonder how long the electronics and electromechanics in the latest high-end Beltuna accordions will last...
With digital instrument like the Roland however there has been great evolution in the past 30 years. The sound and the feel of a digital piano has advanced greatly, and since over 10 years the higher end digital pianos really rival what acoustic pianos deliver. The digital accordions, and especially Roland are lagging at least 10 years behind, probably more like 15 years, and if they keep evolving at the same rate it will take another 10 to 15 years before you can play the "latest" digital accordion with the feel and the sound of an acoustic one. My problem is I probably don't have long enough to live to fully experience these future digital accordions that can replace my acoustic ones...

 

[dak]

The digital accordions, and especially Roland are lagging at least 10 years behind, probably more like 15 years, and if they keep evolving at the same rate it will take another 10 to 15 years before you can play the "latest" digital accordion with the feel and the sound of an acoustic one. My problem is I probably don't have long enough to live to fully experience these future digital accordions that can replace my acoustic ones...

My own take on it is that acoustic accordions are a somewhat botched design due to tonal balance across the range and registers and the bellows as the main expressivity and volume control being shared by all notes in a polyphonic instrument. The issue of individual loudness control was a principal driver in making the pianoforte render most other keyboard instruments irrelevant eventually (the clavichord does have velocity-sensitive volume but numerous other drawbacks). As a compact instrument, the accordion lends itself to tricking around its principal limitations, like by creative use of key and button depression levels to effect individualized articulation anyway.

Now digital accordions have not been developed from scratch: we have the key sensor experience from electronic pianos. But those are essentially on/off with the main information being the velocity of attack, and then of release. Anything else is mostly irrelevant (there are fine points with respect to slow release, but essentially note lifetime is highly constrained once the felt starts touching the string).

With an accordion, individual note expression is controlled with key depression depth. Continuously: it's not like you have a hammer striking a string once. And that means that for fine-grained diversified control of note articulation and partly volume, the sensors are not delivering the necessary information. It would make more sense to move to magnetic rather than contact-based sensors. A computer keyboard of my youth had ferromagnetic cores dipping in and out of coils and changing their inductivity. Hall sensors can principally be made as analog sensors but you need pretty good strategies for placing your magnets in order to get a reliable depression curve (and you likely would need to calibrate that per key). That's the kind of (essentially indestructible) sensor delivering key/button information relevant for an accordion.

The new solenoid-action Beltuna instruments have half-depth keypoints (like cameras use for focusing but not yet shooting) but that's kind of not buying you all that much because it doesn't make for anything "gradual".

So why haven't we seen appropriate key/button sensors yet for the kind of action you expect from an acoustic? One is a problem of market size: accordions are, after all, considered mostly a hack even acoustically. Another is, well, what Paul somewhat denigratingly calls "accordion-shaped controller": a "digital accordion" actually is pretty good, compact, light and useful as a keyboard controller for arrangers et al, and the Stradella bass plays no small role in that. But if you want to use it in that manner, velocity sensitivity makes some sense, and more so with piano keyboards than button keyboards (the typical CBA hand contortions make consistent per-finger velocity less realistic than with the more spread-out and less tangled hand shapes on a piano keyboard). And for many players of digital accordions, the non-accordion sounds are a major selling point, and for those a velocity-sensitive keyboard makes a lot of sense. Particularly for percussive instrument types like drums and also piano.

So focusing away from that application type by using sensors that are less apt at velocity detection comes at a cost of attractivity, too.

 

[John M]

. . . My own take on it is that acoustic accordions are a somewhat botched design due to tonal balance across the range and registers and the bellows as the main expressivity and volume control being shared by all notes in a polyphonic instrument. . .

The Roland 8X does a pretty good job of solving this problem.

You can adjust the individual volume of each reed of the treble keyboard. In addition, there is a 4 band equalizer that allows you to adjust the volume of each of the 4 frequencies by +/- 15 dB. Also, there is a volume Level (0-127) across all the frequencies of the equalizer.

There is an individual volume adjustment of each Bass & Chord reed of the left hand registers.

Bellows expression is excellent with a Resistance adjustment of -64 to +64. There are also 5 different dynamic bellows curves that you can choose from..

 

[dak]

The Roland 8X does a pretty good job of solving this problem.

You can adjust the individual volume of each reed of the treble keyboard. In addition, there is a 4 band equalizer that allows you to adjust the volume of each of the 4 frequencies by +/- 15 dB. Also, there is a volume Level (0-127) across all the frequencies of the equalizer.

There is an individual volume adjustment of each Bass & Chord reed of the left hand registers.

Bellows expression is excellent with a Resistance adjustment of -64 to +64. There are also 5 different dynamic bellows curves that you can choose from..

Sorry, but I don't see myself adjusting the response of the reeds in realtime on a Roland according to the voicing of a fugue.

 

[cestjeffici]

"before you can play the "latest" digital accordion with the feel and the sound of an acoustic one"
I bought my Rolands because I like the sounds they make, I bought a Scandalli because I like its sound as well. I'm not sure I understand why this discussion takes up so much space. You listen to both and choose one or the other or both

 

[xocd]

"before you can play the "latest" digital accordion with the feel and the sound of an acoustic one"
I bought my Rolands because I like the sounds they make, I bought a Scandalli because I like its sound as well. I'm not sure I understand why this discussion takes up so much space. You listen to both and choose one or the other or both

I, for one, really like the practicality of the Roland (weight, different right hand and free-bass setups, etc.) but like the sound of a good non-virtual accordion. I would like to have both in one package. I know, I am greedy. I have had good luck with Pianoteq as a virtual piano that is "good enough". I am hoping to find a good enough virtual (sampled or not) accordion that I can play on my laptop and control via my Roland. If we have landed man on the moon...

xocd

 

[dak]

If we have landed man on the moon...

Then they cannot hear me practising anyway.

 

[Rodney]

If there is a competition between acoustics and digitals then all owners are naturally winners because they bought what they considered was the best option.

 

[JerryPH]

I have said it countless times here, if you are expecting a digital accordion to be 100% the same as an acoustic, you are both in for disappointment and looking in the wrong direction.

If you are an accordion player and KNOW that there are thousands of sounds that a digital accordion can emulate pretty darn well and are ready to accept the downsides because you want all the advantages that an acoustic will NEVER have, then get one and enjoy.

Without sounding mean or demeaning, I am downright tired and fed up of one side trying to put down the other with the intent of trying to make their side look better. Did not your mothers teach you that if you have nothing good to say, to just be silent? If not, perhaps they should have.

I am not talking about sharing technical differences, I am specifically referring to people that think their way is the only way, you all know who you are. Stop. please.

I would like to have both in one package. I know, I am greedy

That is called slapping MIDI in to a Gola and spending 10 grand on a couple of sound modules and arrangers. Instantly the very best of all worlds. It is possible today, but how many can afford that?

Now come the discussions that there are better accordions than the Gola, but that is for another day… lol

 

[dak]

Did not your mothers teach you that if you have nothing good to say, to just be silent?

Well, I am an engineer by heart and profession. My calling is to improve things. That kind of leads to the "if you have nothing bad to say, say nothing at all." crest. For some unfathomable reason it's not exactly a party smash hit.

now come the discussions that there are better accordions than the Gola,

For installing electronics, arguably you want an instrument that is complemented by what the electronics have to offer. Starting with an already well-rounded instrument makes that a tricky proposition. For just silent practice, you wouldn't defile a Gola but just get a different instrument for that purpose.

 

[Ventura]

Now come the discussions that there are better accordions than the Gola, but that is for another day… lol

maybe better ones to MIDI up.. i just don't think a nice Sordino should be
sacrificed for the key switching components.. though adding BASS MIDI in a Gola
would be only mildly invasive but give you the Upright and such.. very useful..

 

[xocd]

That is called slapping MIDI in to a Gola and spending 10 grand on a couple of sound modules and arrangers. Instantly the very best of all worlds. It is possible today, but how many can afford that?

Now come the discussions that there are better accordions than the Gola, but that is for another day… lol

That's not what I meant. I am happy with my Roland as a MIDI controller; among other things, it's lighter than the Gola. I am looking for a (more or less) realisitic-sounding accordion module - it does not have to be perfect. I am not interested in sounding like a celesta, or whatever, just an accordion. I would be happy to run a module on my laptop.

Just discovered this:

PSound - Virtual Instruments

www.psound.it

It looks promising.



I run Pianoteq on my laptop. Their first version was not very good. The current version does not really sound like a 7-foot Steinway, but I like the sound, and use it for silent practice. I am just hoping for the equivalent accordion module.

 

[Tom]

I have said it countless times here, if you are expecting a digital accordion to be 100% the same as an acoustic, you are both in for disappointment and looking in the wrong direction.

If you are an accordion player and KNOW that there are thousands of sounds that a digital accordion can emulate pretty darn well and are ready to accept the downsides because you want all the advantages that an acoustic will NEVER have, then get one and enjoy.

Without sounding mean or demeaning, I am downright tired and fed up of one side trying to put down the other with the intent of trying to make their side look better. Did not your mothers teach you that if you have nothing good to say, to just be silent? If not, perhaps they should have.

I am not talking about sharing technical differences, I am specifically referring to people that think their way is the only way, you all know who you are. Stop. please.


That is called slapping MIDI in to a Gola and spending 10 grand on a couple of sound modules and arrangers. Instantly the very best of all worlds. It is possible today, but how many can afford that?

Now come the discussions that there are better accordions than the Gola, but that is for another day… lol

Come on now Jerry, everyone knows my Piatanesi is better than a Gola! I even think its hurdy gurdy sound beats the Gola’s hands down….

 

[JerryPH]

Come on now Jerry, everyone knows my Piatanesi is better than a Gola! I even think its hurdy gurdy sound beats the Gola’s hands down….

I will have to agree with you!

 

[JerryPH]

For installing electronics, arguably you want an instrument that is complemented by what the electronics have to offer. Starting with an already well-rounded instrument makes that a tricky proposition. For just silent practice, you wouldn't defile a Gola but just get a different instrument for that purpose.

I'd agree and have to say that my Beltuna Leader V is a far better candidate for an "all-round" acoustic/digital hybrid for that (unless you want MIII Free Bass). More registrations than a Gola, lighter, amazing sound, lots of room for the electronics and a Sordino that is very effective and a wonderful accordion sound. For silent playing anything MIDI will do you fine if you don't have a V-accordion. Even has accommodations for a register on the left hand to silence all reeds (though none that do this on the right hand, but the answer of "just don't pull" at that point would serve most people nicely.

For people that are OK playing on a V-accordion, it has a ton of good accordion sounds, and if thats not something they are satisfied with, they can buy a module that holds the accordion sounds they like, and if thats not enough, connect it to a computer and download some sampled accordion sounds. The thing is that there are many solutions out therem enough to cover any one's preferences.

 

[jkh0208]

My apartment manager has threatened to evict me if she receives one more noise complaint from my neighbors because of playing my acoustic accordion. My options now are either getting a digital accordion and using headphones or installing a soundproof booth in my apartment. Any recommendations beyond those two options?

 

[Pipemajor]

My apartment manager has threatened to evict me if she receives one more noise complaint from my neighbors because of playing my acoustic accordion. My options now are either getting a digital accordion and using headphones or installing a soundproof booth in my apartment. Any recommendations beyond those two options?

Move?

 

[jkh0208]

Move?

Not an option. We waited 6 months on a waitlist (while hotel-hopping since there weren’t any large contiguous blocks of availability) to get a place since housing here is extremely limited and most of what is available is unaffordable. Any other place here is going to have the same issue anyways. There’s nowhere we could move to locally without neighbors sharing walls.

 

[JerryPH]

My apartment manager has threatened to evict me if she receives one more noise complaint from my neighbors because of playing my acoustic accordion. My options now are either getting a digital accordion and using headphones or installing a soundproof booth in my apartment. Any recommendations beyond those two options?

Stop playing or start playing requests of songs that the neighbours love?
I like the idea of a sound booth, it’s a bit cheaper than a v-accordion… but not by much… lol