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The Russian way of playing the accordion
- Thread starter saundersbp
- Start date
Let's not forget the "garmon" or "garmoshka" which is a diatonic unisonoric instrument made to play Russian music! It has a bass section that is made to play the typical chords we find in numerous pieces.
en.wikipedia.org
Garmon - Wikipedia
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
You've confused me here.
Are you implying harmonicas aren't free reed instruments?
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
if anyone were to ask me about the origin of the various kinds of "accordion", I would suggest that the accordion is the result, by a series of natural evolutionary steps, from some original inventor adding a set of bellows and a keyboard to a harmonica.
You only have to look inside to reach that conclusion!
The fact that the word "harmonica" frequently features in the naming of the various accordion type of instruments in the alpine (and other) regions of Europe is also highly suggestive as to its origins.
You only have to look inside to reach that conclusion!
The fact that the word "harmonica" frequently features in the naming of the various accordion type of instruments in the alpine (and other) regions of Europe is also highly suggestive as to its origins.
Jaime_Dergut
Well-known member
You've confused me here.
Are you implying harmonicas aren't free reed instruments?
Any instrument that is not operated by mouth is considered a free reed instrument since it is free of manipulation from the mouth.
Wikipedia and online sources won't mention this, but accordion technicians do.
Otherwise, the clarinet, oboe, saxophone and other windwood instruments would be considered free reed as well, and therefore wrongly associated with the accordion, pump organs or instruments alike.
That is all what I was trying to clarify.
Not the distinction between free reed (accordion, harmonica, melodica) and beating reed (clarinet, sax). The free reed vibrates freely in both directions- sometimes freely, or in a frame as in the accordion. The beating reed only has freedom in one direction- away from the "lay".
It is true that beating reeds are frequently controlled by air flow and embouchure.
The source of the air flow is not a consideration.
Jaime_Dergut
Well-known member
Which does not include mouth controlled instruments, since you can/should only push air forward by blowing air out, and that's the definition that accordion technicians use to define a free reed instrument to the public.
But the main point is that the chinese instrument is not even related to an accordion, which is what some people incorrectly assume as originator, which is what I wished to clarify.
Yes, I know I'm about to waste several minutes of what life remains but:
If an instrument was defined by how it is powered then (bellows) Northumbrian pipes and Baroque musettes would not share a place with Highland Pipes and the Biniou.
'Free Reed ' designates how a reed is 'tethered' and what makes the sound. The Sheng has a reed/plate (originally) carved from a single piece of bamboo and this was copied/industrialised by riveting a separate reed to its plate. The English concertina was among the earliest to be inspired by Père Amiot's Sheng - sent to Paris in about 1777. Amiot knew a bit about Chinese music having published a treatise around the same time.
If we remove a reedplate from an accordion and attach it to a mouthpiece (= Harmonica (or Mouthorgan/Blues Harp), it does not cease to be a Freereed instrument.
Or, historically speaking, Wheatstone's Symphonium did not become Freereed by attaching it to a bellows (= a Concertina) - he just made it a commercial/musical success!
As others have said: Say and believe what you want: but let's try to keep "Alternative Facts" away from this Forum.
Nearly forgot:
Re: "you can/should only push air forward by blowing air out"
Tell that to Sonny Boy Williamson!
(Confession: The above is mainly because I just received an irritating email from a family member - I just had to open the safety valve)
(PS to Saunders; Sorry your post was hijacked)
Just had to add this reference:
Seems even Faraday was fooled.
If an instrument was defined by how it is powered then (bellows) Northumbrian pipes and Baroque musettes would not share a place with Highland Pipes and the Biniou.
'Free Reed ' designates how a reed is 'tethered' and what makes the sound. The Sheng has a reed/plate (originally) carved from a single piece of bamboo and this was copied/industrialised by riveting a separate reed to its plate. The English concertina was among the earliest to be inspired by Père Amiot's Sheng - sent to Paris in about 1777. Amiot knew a bit about Chinese music having published a treatise around the same time.
If we remove a reedplate from an accordion and attach it to a mouthpiece (= Harmonica (or Mouthorgan/Blues Harp), it does not cease to be a Freereed instrument.
Or, historically speaking, Wheatstone's Symphonium did not become Freereed by attaching it to a bellows (= a Concertina) - he just made it a commercial/musical success!
As others have said: Say and believe what you want: but let's try to keep "Alternative Facts" away from this Forum.
Nearly forgot:
Re: "you can/should only push air forward by blowing air out"
Tell that to Sonny Boy Williamson!
(Confession: The above is mainly because I just received an irritating email from a family member - I just had to open the safety valve)
(PS to Saunders; Sorry your post was hijacked)
Just had to add this reference:
Seems even Faraday was fooled.
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Jaime_Dergut
Well-known member
You don't say it! Same with the other folk here who just couldn't let it pass, ha!
Is just amusing how many mental gymnastics some people are having here just for some obscure chinese horn that they have never seen or heard before, and never will! This was all about just bayans until several revisionists (you included Dunlustin) decided to strike back! It is kind of entertaining though.
But don't argue with me! Tell that to Accordion Mike from Romagnoli accordions, who was kind enough to clarify what a free reed instrument is to the public in the video here.
Last word:
Re: " some obscure chinese horn that they have never seen or heard before, and never will!"
Come on!
Nobody would dream of commenting on an instrument they had never heard?
Would they?
Re: " some obscure chinese horn that they have never seen or heard before, and never will!"
Come on!
Nobody would dream of commenting on an instrument they had never heard?
Would they?
Jaime_Dergut
Well-known member
Well, life is full of surprises, I suppose.
Surely the case.
"There are several different types of reeds used in wind instruments, probably the most common being the beating reed, as used in clarinets, saxophones, etc. These reeds are usually made from a thin piece of cane, or synthetic equivalent, fixed at one end over an opening in the flat surface of a mouthpiece. As the name suggests, the reed is slightly wider than this opening and when the player applies pressure, the reed beats against the mouthpiece and sets into motion a column of air whose pitch is determined by open fingerholes, or some similar mechanism. These are often called single reeds, in contrast with the double reeds of instruments such as the oboe, where the reed is in two parts which beat against each other. (To be accurate, rather than literally beating against the mouthpiece, or against the other half of the reed, beating reeds actually beat against a cushion of air on the surface of the mouthpiece or between the two halves of a double reed, but let's not complicate matters too much here.)
In contrast a free reed is a small strip of material (most commonly of metal, but in some cases made of plastic or vegetable matter such as bamboo) also fixed at one end, but which is set in or over a slot that is fractionally wider than the reed itself. As a result, when pressure (or suction) is applied, the reed swings freely though the slot to set up a vibrating column of air which gives voice to the instrument."*
There are numerous scientific papers on the subject going into painful math and lots of history (much of that indeed based upon some speculation and usually fairly well informed contextual imagination).
"Accordion Mike" is surely a pretty darned good accordion player, a nice guy, and has a lot of experience in used and new accordion sales and service. His explanation of what a free reed it is simply not correct though- although you can see how he'd have picked it up through loose conversation over the years. He also believes that an accordion only needs tuning every 15 years or so according to the video referenced by Mr. Dergut. Depends on who's playing it of course- and while by and large that might well work for me squeezing on the front bench, the good Mr. DeBras would almost certainly beg to differ in a big way.
My apologies to anyone here who squanders the time required to navigate this tempest in a teapot.
*Taken from " https://patmissin.com/history/whatis.html "
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Walker
🪗
The accordion has a undeniable link to the sheng. They even have a similar tone - and they blend so well together.
Russian bayan and sheng in dialogue:
Russian bayan and sheng in dialogue:
Jaime_Dergut
Well-known member
Well, it is good to see them being cited here as a way to support something.
When I see another accordion technician as he, stepping out and talking to the public, then I might consider his authority in the subject.
Is just amusing how the controversy is keeping this post alive and entertainment.
Jaime_Dergut
Well-known member
Just like any other woodwind instrument, and yet, nobody out there compares the flute, the clarinet or the saxophone as the precursor of the instrument
Is not any different with the chinese horn. They probably got that discussion out of what they read in wikipedia too, ha!
Also, look at how that horn is played:
Is the chinese horn copying the saxophone? Could be....
We can have a similar "discussion" in the video bellow with a saxophone and another bayan, just for the fun of it.
Perhaps this means the saxophone is the true precursor of the accordion!
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Dingo40
Been here for ages!
Jaime,
You got to know when to hold them, when to fold them...when to walk away!
You got to know when to hold them, when to fold them...when to walk away!
Variant on an old song:
I am a Troll, Fol de Rol
And
You'll eat me for your dinner
I am a Troll, Fol de Rol
And
You'll eat me for your dinner
I take care to research and be correct in assertions of fact... but I am also given to ...."wild"(?) speculation drawn from inferences and essentially impossible to verify on occasion in regard to "might be".
Ventura justifiably brought me up short on an earlier thread when I speculated upon common aspects of the 1920's "Special" accordion school oriented instruments. There might well have been common components and relabeling in the small bowl of US accordion manufacturer/importer/assembler chaos where individuals later founded great name compaies but were pretty small potatoes at the time- I sure couldn't offer proof though.
He was spot on in citing the danger of something like this site, frequently cited as an authoritative source by casual passers by, presenting speculation as fact.
And in the end I at least, really do suffer from an obnoxious and excruciatingly difficult urge to get in the last word in a heated "discussion".
Of course, this is just an offensive personal foible and probably doesn't affect anyone else.
