Western Music vs Eastern Music

[Chickers]

Hi ALL:
I thank you all for the great contributions, and fine examples of music.
I suspect we have only touched on a very small segment----so much to explore.

 

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

There are actually three (some say four) klezmer scales or modes. In addition, Western major scales and the three Western minor nodes are also employed in klezmer music. But I have to go back to my sources and notes on those klezmer modes and their names, and that means some digging. I’ll fill in the blanks next week, unless Zevy beats me to it

The main modes used in klezmer, in order of most common usage:

1. Ahavo Rabboh, or Freygish. Similar to the 5th mode of the harmonic minor and Maqam Hijaz in Arabic music. In D the notes would be D,Eb,F#,G,A,Bb,C,D, although there is commonly a B natural below the root.

2. Mi Sheberakh. Similar to the 4th mode of the harmonic minor or the 7th mode of Freygish, so D,E,F,G#,A,B,C,D.

3. Adonoy Molokh. Similar to mixolydian, so D,E,F#,G,A,B,C,D

4. Mogen Ovos. Similar to natural minor, so D,E,F,G,A,Bb,C,D.

None of these are exclusive to Jewish music, and this is an incomplete list.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

The main modes used in klezmer, in order of most common usage:

1. Ahavo Rabboh, or Freygish. Similar to the 5th mode of the harmonic minor and Maqam Hijaz in Arabic music. In D the notes would be D,Eb,F#,G,A,Bb,C,D, although there is commonly a B natural below the root.

2. Mi Sheberakh. Similar to the 4th mode of the harmonic minor or the 7th mode of Freygish, so D,E,F,G#,A,B,C,D.

3. Adonoy Molokh. Similar to mixolydian, so D,E,F#,G,A,B,C,D

4. Mogen Ovos. Similar to natural minor, so D,E,F,G,A,Bb,C,D.

None of these are exclusive to Jewish music, and this is an incomplete list.

Thanks, Big Squeezy Accordion. You actually listed the modes in descending order if greatest usage.

The names all come from the first few words of prayers in Hebrew as chanted by cantors in the Ashkenazi tradition:

1. Ahavo Rabboh translates to A Great Love. Fregish, the less traditional but more widely used for this mode, is Yiddish, and reflects the fact that this mode sounds almost like the phrygian church mode.

2. Mi Sheberakh translates to May He Who Blessed …

3. Adonoy Molokh translates to The Lord King Reigns …

4. Mogen Ovos translates to Shield of our Ancestors. Since this mode is the least utilized in klezmer music, some authorities recognize only the other three.

The transliterations of the names of these modes reflects the Ashkenazi pronunciation of them.

A good source for more information on the modes, including alternate names, notation, audio examples and possible harmonizations is found at https://www.ilanakravitz.com. This site, besides the section on modes, has much more information pertaining to klezmer music. Ilana Kravitz is a klezmer violinist based in the UK.

For those of you who want to get even more technical about the klezmer modes, Josh Horowitz goes into great detail about submodes (some of which have Hebrew names) and modal progressions in klezmer music. I don’t have a direct link to the article, but it’s available by searching www.klezmershack.com. Josh Horowitz plays a nineteenth-century three-row CBA manufactured by Budowitz and also plays the tsimbl (a kind of hammered dulcimer used in klezmer music.) He is based in the USA.

 

[murathan]

I like Klezmer because its totally westernized. Other music needs tweaking. It is easy to play semitones on a string instrument. Thats why many people uses these.

 

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

Thanks, Big Squeezy Accordion. You actually listed the modes in descending order if greatest usage.

The names all come from the first few words of prayers in Hebrew as chanted by cantors in the Ashkenazi tradition:

1. Ahavo Rabboh translates to A Great Love. Fregish, the less traditional but more widely used for this mode, is Yiddish, and reflects the fact that this mode sounds almost like the phrygian church mode.

2. Mi Sheberakh translates to May He Who Blessed …

3. Adonoy Molokh translates to The Lord King Reigns …

4. Mogen Ovos translates to Shield of our Ancestors. Since this mode is the least utilized in klezmer music, some authorities recognize only the other three.

The transliterations of the names of these modes reflects the Ashkenazi pronunciation of them.

A good source for more information on the modes, including alternate names, notation, audio examples and possible harmonizations is found at https://www.ilanakravitz.com. This site, besides the section on modes, has much more information pertaining to klezmer music. Ilana Kravitz is a klezmer violinist based in the UK.

For those of you who want to get even more technical about the klezmer modes, Josh Horowitz goes into great detail about submodes (some of which have Hebrew names) and modal progressions in klezmer music. I don’t have a direct link to the article, but it’s available by searching www.klezmershack.com. Josh Horowitz plays a nineteenth-century three-row CBA manufactured by Budowitz and also plays the tsimbl (a kind of hammered dulcimer used in klezmer music.) He is based in the USA.

Alan, I listed the modes roughly in order of how often they occur, based on my 25+ years of playing the music, starting with freygish, which Beregovski estimated comprised a quarter of the tunes he collected. I'm not sure if you are concurring, or somehow saying it's the other way around. Anyway, yes, Josh Horowitz is one of the leading scholars of this music, as well as a great Schrammel accordionist and tsimblist, and I strongly recommend any of his writings.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

Alan, I listed the modes roughly in order of how often they occur, based on my 25+ years of playing the music, starting with freygish, which Beregovski estimated comprised a quarter of the tunes he collected. I'm not sure if you are concurring, or somehow saying it's the other way around. Anyway, yes, Josh Horowitz is one of the leading scholars of this music, as well as a great Schrammel accordionist and tsimblist, and I strongly recommend any of his writings.

I do agree with you about the order.

Sixteen years ago, my wife and daughter and I went to KlezKamp. Among the workshops I attended was one conducted by Josh Horowitz. Talk about amazing! IIRC, he started out by teaching us to recognize the mode of a klezmer tune by examining the lower tetrachord. He then went into how one mode can modulate to another. He had us listen to examples and then reproduce them on our own instruments.

I don’t get to play klezmer music very much anymore, but all of the workshops at that KlezKamp session were top quality.

 

[Dingo40]

Some klezmer

 

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

I do agree with you about the order.

Sixteen years ago, my wife and daughter and I went to KlezKamp. Among the workshops I attended was one conducted by Josh Horowitz. Talk about amazing! IIRC, he started out by teaching us to recognize the mode of a klezmer tune by examining the lower tetrachord. He then went into how one mode can modulate to another. He had us listen to examples and then reproduce them on our own instruments.

I don’t get to play klezmer music very much anymore, but all of the workshops at that KlezKamp session were top quality.

He's a brilliant man and great musician. I did a workshop with him as well at Klezkanada many years ago.

 

[dan]

Playing an accordion, it is easy to forget that not every musical tradition uses the same notes and tuning (12 tone equal temperament) or relies on major and minor chords for accompaniment!

Something to understand is Eastern music is the early music that goes back to Pythagoras the philosopher and his theorems. It was the standard for thousands of years before and after. Western music however is developed about Renaissance period.

I once borrowed a seven-string harp. It had to be retuned regularly, which I did by ear, trying several different configurations. '
This gave me an intuitive understanding for the modes and just intonation that were used in Ancient Greek music theory and retained in many cultures around the world.

 

[Gwerziou]

A few years ago, (pre-pandemic) there was a one-evening event in Seattle's Town Hall venue called 'World Accordion Festival' and the highlight for me was an Iranian trio, three brothers, where the accordionist had re-tuned the instrument to the Iranian 'dastgah' system. It was absolutely sublime.

 

[Walker]

Something to understand is Eastern music is the early music that goes back to Pythagoras the philosopher and his theorems. It was the standard for thousands of years before and after. Western music however is developed about Renaissance period. So the western theory is the new music and other is the old. While these are happening in Europe, many nations and the Eastern world continued the old style.

The new Western music standard took many things from eastern methods. Refined and simplified them, basically adjusted to be polyphonic. There are some differences naturally but they are not totally different things.

Eastern music is using more flat / sharps, dividing a tone (For example C to D) to nine slices. But it is not polyphonic. Everybody plays the same music. So one is developed horizontally (eastern) and the other developed vertically with many notes playing at the same time (western). Although potentially there are 3000 scales in eastern music, its proven it uses 4-5 scales in general. So they are equal in that area too we can say.

Its also not an argument of good / bad (or simple / complicated) music. The two have their own characteristics and joys. They are both capable and deep enough.

Eastern music is still taught by showing, learning from the master by ear, not much using scientific learning methods. But it also updated the theory and sheet music to match with the western, now became universal standards.

Western music is still to be learnt easier and more scientific.

To my observation, most complicated Eastern music is the music of India.

Its a matter of taste than competition.

What are you like Murathan... discussing the music of the West and East is like attempting to empty the Seven Seas with a paper cup... but seeing as you've made a start, I also have a spare paper cup, so will join in for a little while. Here's a few droplets of musing that I gathered while sitting by a calm accordion river as it flowed gently into the ocean.

You know, I thought I'd "seen it all" when I heard Richard Galliano play his epic version of Rhapsody in Blue, I mean it was so ridiculously awesome. Like the best 16 minutes of accordion music I'd ever heard. Ever! And how cool was Gershwin... what a great job writing this noisy cityscape of secular sounds... and Galliano, he somehow managed to distil it into a fiery, sweet liqueur... a heady musical treat. So yup, that was really memorable.

But now I am really shaken... Why? This morning I stumbled upon a recording of the great American accordionist Henry Doktorski and I was floored yet again... this brilliant musician has created a whole album of sacred works called Ave Maria: Hymns To Mary, and it is just glorious! The recording contains many pieces, jewels of different hues - some of which are Gregorian Chants a thousand years old! I have fallen upon some of the most beautiful, ancient Marian antiphons, played on our instrument the accordion, with confidence and authenticity... It sounds brilliant - rare indeed!

Okay, I need a new cup, mine's disintegrated in the water already...​

 

[saundersbp]

This morning I stumbled upon a recording of the great American accordionist Henry Doktorski and I was floored yet again... this brilliant musician has created a whole album of sacred works called Ave Maria: Hymns To Mary, and it is just glorious!

I had a listen to this album on YouTube and it's very nice indeed - simple, musical and using some of the best tunes for Our Lady as a source. I particularly liked the four Marian antiphons played over a drone. No wonder the accordion was blessed by the Pope!

 

[Walker]

I had a listen to this album on YouTube and it's very nice indeed - simple, musical and using some of the best tunes for Our Lady as a source. I particularly liked the four Marian antiphons played over a drone. No wonder the accordion was blessed by the Pope!

It's impossible for me to pick a favourite here in the Doktorski recording... but the four Marian antiphons are very special and I'm grateful to Doktorski for sharing them online for anyone to hear. So good on the accordion! I was also blown away by the 13th Century Ave Maria, Latin Chant. Hearing the accordion used to express these pieces raises our instrument to the next level.​

 

[oldbayan]

Eastern music: mostly minor chords.
Western music: mostly major chords.