kanderso
Newbie
I don't know what to add here, as my whole question is in the title! :^)
Thank you in advance.
Thank you in advance.
Which glue works well for attaching plastic valves (ventile)?
- Thread starter kanderso
- Start date
I use Pattex shoe glue, but regular Pattex, Bostik or whatever it's called in your region should work fine too.
The shoe glue never hardens 100% and the elasticity it keeps forever also means the valves stick forever but can always be removed (with a bit of effort). Not even all accordion manufacturers have always used suitable glue. I have experienced lots of valves spontaneously falling off on Fantini accordions for instance (and other names made by Fantini, like Kratt).
The shoe glue never hardens 100% and the elasticity it keeps forever also means the valves stick forever but can always be removed (with a bit of effort). Not even all accordion manufacturers have always used suitable glue. I have experienced lots of valves spontaneously falling off on Fantini accordions for instance (and other names made by Fantini, like Kratt).
Ikesaccordions
Active member
In the old days Hohner and Gabannelli and Weltmeister and others used what looks like a dark glue with shellac in it. Now 30 + years later all the ventile are falling off.
I use Original Super Glue Fix-All Adhesive (not the cyanoacrylic) with the purple stripe on the label, which may not be the best glue, but is easy to use. The only place I have ever bought any is Dollar Tree, and if they happen to have it, I buy all of it.
I use Original Super Glue Fix-All Adhesive (not the cyanoacrylic) with the purple stripe on the label, which may not be the best glue, but is easy to use. The only place I have ever bought any is Dollar Tree, and if they happen to have it, I buy all of it.
For valves (plastic or leather) you want to use a glue that can come off without destroying the valve. The old shellac worked but became very hard after decades and then let loose (so the valves fall off). Any type of super glue will glue very well but won't come off without using so much force the valves are destroyed. A "shoe glue" has the property of being strong glue but always keeping just enough elasticity to be able to gently pry off the valves, often without destroying them. (It's logical: shoe glue needs to remain somewhat elastic because shoes need to be able to bend while walking.)
I use a "white resin", typically known as Elmer's glue. Easy to work with, holds the valves, dries reasonably quick and is easy to get off. All easy to find and buy.
Ventura
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A glue that dries but stay elastic is best. I use this ---
www.beaconadhesives.com
Fabri-Tac™ - Beacon Adhesives
Fabri-Tac™ is a premium quality glue and has been a favorite among professional designers for decades. It's otherwise known as the hot glue gun in a bottle!
www.beaconadhesives.com
Ikesaccordions
Active member
Pva glue like Elmer's won't hold well on metal. I don't worry about destroying the valve since I get them wholesale from the factory.
MasonHerb
Member
I use the same with no issues (other than operator error
)I think I will make the move to shoe glue when that little bottle runs out, but I think I'm a few thousand valves away from that.
Caps
Active member
I used this on a small accordion about 10 years ago ( at your recommendation I think) and so far its is still holding.
Ikesaccordions
Active member
The same what?I use the same with no issues (other than operator error
I think I will make the move to shoe glue when that little bottle runs out, but I think I'm a few thousand valves away from that.
I use Fiebig's Leather Cement which amounts to white glue. Gets sticky pretty fast, is relatively easy to wok with neatly (make a small puddle and dab it on with a toothpick) and appears good for the long haul. Appears, surprisingly, to adhere well to the metal. That may be specifice to the leather cement as opposed to Elmer's et al.
The Fabritec surely holds and holds well but dries to gooey almost too fast and should you slop some over somehow can be a collosal pain to deal with.
I have doubts about shellac over time as when it really hardens up it becomes pretty brittle and seems to lose its grip on metal. Most of my experience along those lines comes from working on old saxophones which use shellac for the pads and- in the days when dinosaurs roamed the earth- for buffer/regulation corks and felt as well.
The use of shellac for sax pads has a real strong selling point in that you can reheat it in situ and adjust the seat of the pad- something that doesn't apply to accordion leathers.
The Fabritec surely holds and holds well but dries to gooey almost too fast and should you slop some over somehow can be a collosal pain to deal with.
I have doubts about shellac over time as when it really hardens up it becomes pretty brittle and seems to lose its grip on metal. Most of my experience along those lines comes from working on old saxophones which use shellac for the pads and- in the days when dinosaurs roamed the earth- for buffer/regulation corks and felt as well.
The use of shellac for sax pads has a real strong selling point in that you can reheat it in situ and adjust the seat of the pad- something that doesn't apply to accordion leathers.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
i seem to recall a post waaaaay back where you made your own shellac in a pinch
by forced evaporating some kind of solvent or maybe it was gas ?
Many repairers use regular Pattex (called Bostik in some countries), and I do understand why they don't move to shoe glue: it is less stringy. With shoe glue you need to keep a paper towel standby all the time and worry about thin strings of glue, initially between where you put a drop of glue and the tube, but if you're not careful also on other things in between the drop and tube... it can be tricky or messy. But once you have the glue on cleanly it sticks and just keeps sticking (afaik forever).I use the same with no issues (other than operator error
I think I will make the move to shoe glue when that little bottle runs out, but I think I'm a few thousand valves away from that.
Caps
Active member
Holy smoke! That was a really long time ago. 20+ years I guess. I can't believe you still remembered that. Yeah, back when hardware stores sold shellac flakes, hide glue and fish glue. . You would heat up some wood grain alcohol in a small shot-glass size container with your little alcohol burner and then add the shellac flakes a bit at a time until you got a thick paste. Pick up a drop on a toothpick and use it to hold the leather. Hardened quickly as it cooled.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
oh Caps, you always were hands on creative.. so that was you doing the
home-made shellac.. i remembered about it but i mixed up the WhoDone it
LoL
how is the shoulder ?
well you havn't posted in awhile.. i picked up a 4x finally
and shared some sets here.. still working on figuring it out
ciao
home-made shellac.. i remembered about it but i mixed up the WhoDone it
LoL
how is the shoulder ?
well you havn't posted in awhile.. i picked up a 4x finally
and shared some sets here.. still working on figuring it out
ciao
Ikesaccordions
Active member
The old makers' shellac glue held pretty well. I'm not sure what they used for a filler.
I've tried putting cellulose lacquer in it to make it more permanent, but I think one important thing is for it to be fresh, like it is subject to deterioration since it is a natural product of secretions of the "lac" bug. They don't date the cans of the liquid shellac any more,, as I think Zinsser claims it stays fresh until you open it. The lacquer makes it too strong.
It won't hold well if it is not mixed with just enough alcohol, but not enough to soak into the leather. That's why I think the factories put some kind of filler in it. Now I'm trying powdered marble as a filler.
To get fresh shellac glue I put the canned shellac in a jar in a pan of water and boil out the alcohol. If it gets stiff it won't hold well so I might pour a little raw shellac from the can in, and mix it well. Sometimes wood alcohol to thin it, but that is not as good as the alcohol from the canned stuff.
I've tried putting cellulose lacquer in it to make it more permanent, but I think one important thing is for it to be fresh, like it is subject to deterioration since it is a natural product of secretions of the "lac" bug. They don't date the cans of the liquid shellac any more,, as I think Zinsser claims it stays fresh until you open it. The lacquer makes it too strong.
It won't hold well if it is not mixed with just enough alcohol, but not enough to soak into the leather. That's why I think the factories put some kind of filler in it. Now I'm trying powdered marble as a filler.
To get fresh shellac glue I put the canned shellac in a jar in a pan of water and boil out the alcohol. If it gets stiff it won't hold well so I might pour a little raw shellac from the can in, and mix it well. Sometimes wood alcohol to thin it, but that is not as good as the alcohol from the canned stuff.
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
Here in darkest Oz, we are still able to purchase Methylated Spirits (mainly ethanol mixed with some methanol, to prevent imbibing by topers), shellac flakes, and ready to use liquid shellac polish at our local hardware store.
You can mix it to any consistency you like (no heating required) and it will keep in a stoppered bottle or jar ( unrefrigerated)
for decades.
In fact, the presence of any open flame together with a simultaneous application of heat to the solution while mixing could easily result in a fire, with or without an accompanying explosion.
I've never heard of any "filler" or thickener being used: just the alcohol and shellac flakes (or buttons).
If filler should be needed to fill the wood grain being polished, it (and any stain to alter the colour) is applied before using the shellac.
From the web:
"A typical recipe for French polish is mixed at a ratio of 250 g shellac flakes to 1 L methylated spirit. If a thicker polish is required this can be increased to 500 g shellac flakes to 1 L methylated spirit."
You place the ingredients in a suitable stoppered bottle (an empty beer bottle is great), shake and leave to stand, with occasional shakings from time to time.
When clear, it's ready to use ( two or three days).
While waiting, empty more beer bottles in case of need!
You can mix it to any consistency you like (no heating required) and it will keep in a stoppered bottle or jar ( unrefrigerated)
for decades.
In fact, the presence of any open flame together with a simultaneous application of heat to the solution while mixing could easily result in a fire, with or without an accompanying explosion.
I've never heard of any "filler" or thickener being used: just the alcohol and shellac flakes (or buttons).
If filler should be needed to fill the wood grain being polished, it (and any stain to alter the colour) is applied before using the shellac.
From the web:
"A typical recipe for French polish is mixed at a ratio of 250 g shellac flakes to 1 L methylated spirit. If a thicker polish is required this can be increased to 500 g shellac flakes to 1 L methylated spirit."
You place the ingredients in a suitable stoppered bottle (an empty beer bottle is great), shake and leave to stand, with occasional shakings from time to time.
When clear, it's ready to use ( two or three days).
While waiting, empty more beer bottles in case of need!
Last edited:
Ikesaccordions
Active member
This is kind of like your suggestion for using newspaper to ship tea sets, so whatever worked with your tea sets should work for shipping accordions.Here in darkest Oz, we are still able to purchase Methylated Spirits (mainly ethanol mixed with some methanol, to prevent imbibing by topers), shellac flakes, and ready to use liquid shellac polish at our local hardware store.
You can mix it to any consistency you like (no heating required) and it will keep in a stoppered bottle or jar ( unrefrigerated)
for decades.
In fact, the presence of any open flame together with a simultaneous application of heat to the solution while mixing could easily result in a fire, with or without an accompanying explosion.
I've never heard of any "filler" or thickener being used: just the alcohol and shellac flakes (or buttons).
If filler should be needed to fill the wood grain being polished, it (and any stain to alter the colour) is applied before using the shellac.
From the web:
"A typical recipe for French polish is mixed at a ratio of 250 g shellac flakes to 1 L methylated spirit. If a thicker polish is required this can be increased to 500 g shellac flakes to 1 L methylated spirit."
You place the ingredients in a suitable stoppered bottle (an empty beer bottle is great), shake and leave to stand, with occasional shakings from time to time.
When clear, it's ready to use ( two or three days).
While waiting, empty more beer bottles in case of need!
Last edited:
KiwiSqueezer
Active member
The OP asked specifically about plastic valves. Glueing plastics is a minefield - particularly when you can't easily find out what the plastic is, or what the adhesive contains. I believe that PVC (vinyl) is a common material for valves, but I bet others are used, perhaps Mylar (Melinex) or goodness knows what. Many plastics are difficult to stick, and many plastics are stuck together with solvents, 'welding' the material together. PVC is typically joined that way. So, you need to know what you're doing, otherwise the adhesive won't work, or will attack the plastic.
Suggesting names like 'Bostik' doesn't help, because 'Bostik' is just a brand name: they produce a range of adhesives. 'Shoe glue' probably covers a multitude of formulations. I have something called 'Shoe Goo', by Eclectic Products Inc. (USA), but is that similar to pattex shoe glue? It seems to stick to some plastics, but not others. There are other 'shoe glues' in the shops, but would one be suitable/better? Here in NZ, we have a very limited range of products available, often the same as available in other countries, but under different brand names, and their packaging is very coy about the formulation, and often gives no suggestion about what solvent may be used for clean-up.
So, the question is complex, and still awaits an answer that is generally useful, especially in 'foreign' countries, with different brands. If this seems like whingeing, or a rant, I make no apologies. I'm finding that getting useful information about accordion repair can be frustrating...
Suggesting names like 'Bostik' doesn't help, because 'Bostik' is just a brand name: they produce a range of adhesives. 'Shoe glue' probably covers a multitude of formulations. I have something called 'Shoe Goo', by Eclectic Products Inc. (USA), but is that similar to pattex shoe glue? It seems to stick to some plastics, but not others. There are other 'shoe glues' in the shops, but would one be suitable/better? Here in NZ, we have a very limited range of products available, often the same as available in other countries, but under different brand names, and their packaging is very coy about the formulation, and often gives no suggestion about what solvent may be used for clean-up.
So, the question is complex, and still awaits an answer that is generally useful, especially in 'foreign' countries, with different brands. If this seems like whingeing, or a rant, I make no apologies. I'm finding that getting useful information about accordion repair can be frustrating...
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