wisdom of changing base tuning (or not)

[Wheezer]

my instincts tell me that it’s not a good idea, but let me ask the experts on here…

I have an accordion that is tuned to A443. It needs a visit to the tuner, so I’m contemplating having it tuned to A440. Cost aside, and assuming that I have a competent tuner, is this a good idea or not?

 

[Dingo40]

Others will give you more specific advice but, in general, winding down 3 cps may be considered quite a lot. ?
Then, are you playing with others and, if so, what pitch are they tuned to?
If not, does it matter?
We had an old piano that was always out of pitch.
Whenever we played as a group (two accordions, a guitar and that piano) it was quite grating, but OK without it or piano by itself.

 

[Wheezer]

Others will give you more specific advice but, in general, winding down 3 cps may be considered quite a lot. ?
Then, are you playing with others and, if so, what pitch are they tuned to?

Yes, I play with stringed instruments - guitars, violin, and bass. I use an accordion that is tuned to A440 when I get together with them. I would like to use the one that is currently tuned to 443 because it is lighter and has a pleasantly unique timbre that speaks to me.

They can always tune to me, except I think that the violinist hears absolute pitches rather than relative intervals, so that could be a problem.

 

[debra]

Tuning down (or up) a whole accordion is generally a bad idea. Doing it for 1Hz is not a problem as when I'm tuning an accordion that has not been serviced for 20+ years (that's most of the accordions...) most reeds are out by 1Hz or more already. But I find that for instance tuning down a 442Hz accordion to 440Hz (because the manufacturer used his own standard rather than the ISO standard) is a lot of work and requires so much scratching of the reeds that it will most certainly reduce the lifetime of the reeds and may alter their timbre a bit as well. 2Hz at A4 means changing the reed's tuning by 8 cents. The best way to do this is to remove all the reed plates and valves, tune down the reeds using a wide file or belt sander, and then putting everything back. It's a huge job (and still requires a normal tuning job after letting the wax settle for 2 weeks or more).
In the ACA courses I took we were strongly advised to never change the base tuning of an accordion and that was excellent advise.
My general take on this (towards "customers") is: when you want an accordion with a certain tuning, buy the accordion with that tuning! Do not ask a repairer to change the tuning afterwards! What I sometimes agree to do is to reduce the amount of tremolo somewhat (because in a distant past accordions just tended to have stronger tremolo than what we like now) and that is already a lot of work.

 

[tcabot]

If it's a complete reeds-out job, the reeds can be carefully sanded/filed across the entire width 3hz down with no damage to the reed or change in its properties whatsoever. It really doesn't take much material to be removed. The whole thing will have to be re-tuned after. It is quite a lot to remove if you are using a scratcher though and you'll probably butcher the reed!
Perhaps, the only exception are some traditional reeds that are incredibly (tinfoil!) thin at the tips. My bando is A=437 and I don't think I can safely push it to 440 without breaking a few reed tips. Modern reeds don't go that thin afaik.

I dread to think what the cost would be or who would agree to undertake this job... Especially, if you need someone to re-tune a 3-voice musette

FWIW, if if you think how reeds are made, when making a reed from scratch, pushing it down by a semitone with a hand file or a sanding belt still does not alter the overall profile and stiffness too much in some cases (going up can be a bit more tricky, depending on how much "meat" is left in the tip, so 3hz is peanuts.

Having done it on one box, I don't think it's worth it... But if you're overhauling a completely clapped out box (re-wax, clean, de-rust & re-valve) then you'll have to do a full re-tune anyway,

 

[debra]

...

Having done it on one box, I don't think it's worth it... But if you're overhauling a completely clapped out box (re-wax, clean, de-rust & re-valve) then you'll have to do a full re-tune anyway,

I fully agree. If you are doing everything anyway and the reeds are nothing special (not legendary reeds from an old Gola or Super VI for instance, or hand made Catraro or Taborro reeds) then it makes sense to just order a completely new set of reeds of good quality, pre-tuned to what you want the final tuning to be.
I inherited a vintage Crucianelli (Super Video, LMMM) and took everything apart for cleaning, revalving, rewaxing and then tuning but it was tuned 442 and I didn't want to ruin the nice Bugari reeds by trying to go down to 440. So now it's a nice accordion with a bit milder tremolo than it was, but still 442 (which I can essentially never use except for a solo performance). I got tricked into tuning down a bass accordion by being told it was factory tuned to 441Hz and thus needed to be tuned down just 1Hz. When I started measuring it turned to be really 442Hz (no wonder, it was a Pigini) and it was a big job to get it down to 440Hz and have everything be stable again...

 

[JKJ]

We had an old piano that was always out of pitch.
Whenever we played as a group (two accordions, a guitar and that piano) it was quite grating, but OK without it or piano by itself.

I have a funny (and embarrassing) story about that. As young teens who didn’t know any better, my brother and I worked up a piano/trumpet duet, a hymn (“God of our Fathers”), with me on the trumpet, both memorizing the music. We sounded wonderful together at home (if I say so myself), but when we started at the church event, it was a rock-bottom disaster. “Quite grating” can’t begin to describe it.

The trumpet was B-flat, of course. Our old home piano was in tune with itself but turned out to be a full step low!!! We had played together for ages from the same hymn books, not smart enough to realize the significance.

At the church (with a properly tuned piano) we started the song several times with much confusion, then like a hammer to the head suddenly realized the problem! So he played through once, I played through once (both improvising where needed), then we sat down. We learned a valuable lesson that day. 60+ years later I can smile about it!

Much later, I rebuilt that old (player) piano, replaced all the strings, etc, and tuned it properly. That piano, pushing 100 years old now, is still in use today at a a sons’s house!

JKJ

PS: the hymn "God of Our Fathers" was written in 1876 to commemorate the 100th anniversary of the US Declaration of Independence. Our ill-fated independently-played “performance“ was for an independence day celebration. Twistedly appropriate?…

 

[JerryPH]

A more reasonable but NOT cost effective option, just replace all the reeds, maybe using a donor accordion?

 

[Dingo40]

maybe using a donor accordion?

Maybe using a replacement accordion?

 

[tcabot]

Switching to a guitar - they are easier to tune.

 

[JerryPH]

Switching to a guitar - they are easier to tune.

Recorders are easier to tune AND play.

 

[debra]

Recorders are easier to tune AND play.

That only works to some extent. We tried a performance of our accordion ensemble (all tuned 440, albeit some tuned all over the place after 30 years of no tuning at all) and a recorder ensemble, and the recorders were tuned as high as they could, but they were still a bit below 440. They just could not go quite high enough, but it was close enough to not sound terrible together (as some accordions were quite a bit out of tune anyway).

 

[pitzelberger]

I am playing in an ensemble with two clarinets and a guitar. The clarinetists were actually quite happy, when they learned that I own some (old) accordions tuned to 443 and 444, since 443 seems still to be the standard in German orchestras and as well the base tuning of their instruments. (Playing at 440 seems possible for them, but, as they explained, more tiring than playing at their base 443 or at the higher 444.) The guitarist had to invest 15 bucks into a new tuning device, where he can adjust the base frequency. Now we are all happy .

 

[Wheezer]

I am playing in an ensemble with two clarinets and a guitar. The clarinetists were actually quite happy, when they learned that I own some (old) accordions tuned to 443 and 444, since 443 seems still to be the standard in German orchestras and as well the base tuning of their instruments. (Playing at 440 seems possible for them, but, as they explained, more tiring than playing at their base 443 or at the higher 444.) The guitarist had to invest 15 bucks into a new tuning device, where he can adjust the base frequency. Now we are all happy .

Thank you. The accordion in question is an old 4 rocker Excelsior NY. It has a tonal quality that I like prefer over my chambered instruments, and it is lighter and much less bulky. It has become my goto practice instrument, despite some gurgling and out of tune reeds.

After reading some of the responses, I have decided to let my tuner determine the current base tuning and tune it to that. I would not want to risk changing the timbre via a drastic retuning to take it to 440.

My ensemble playing is mostly old fashioned parlor music with a handful of local hobby musicians, rather than performances and gigs. Your post is reassuring in that it doesn’t sound like it would be a strain for my friends to tune up to my Excelsior.

 

[Wheezer]

A question for you tuners out there…

Do you have any tricks that I can use to zero in on the likely original base tuning?

I have access to a competent tuner, in whom I have total confidence, so I will leave it to him to determine when he starts work. But I’m curious as to how I might satisfy my own curiosity beforehand. Using a tuning app, it seems to be centered somewhere around 443. But the app is very sensitive and the needle jumps around quite a bit.

 

[pitzelberger]

Do you have any tricks that I can use to zero in on the likely original base tuning?

I am not a professional, but what I would do:

• Measure the frequency not only at a' but at multiple notes on multiple reed banks and on push and pull (ideally all notes on all read banks except the tremolo ones).
• Enter the values into an Excel sheet, which allows you to compute the cent deviation of the notes to the ideal frequency assuming a certain base frequency. Find the base frequency, which minimizes the average deviation over all notes.
• While doing so, control for air pressure using a manometer (e.g. see here how to can be done https://accordionrevival.com/ACCORDION_REPAIR_3.php)

 

[Wheezer]

I am not a professional, but what I would do:

• Measure the frequency not only at a' but at multiple notes on multiple reed banks and on push and pull (ideally all notes on all read banks except the tremolo ones).
• Enter the values into an Excel sheet, which allows you to compute the cent deviation of the notes to the ideal frequency assuming a certain base frequency. Find the base frequency, which minimizes the average deviation over all notes.
• While doing so, control for air pressure using a manometer (e.g. see here how to can be done https://accordionrevival.com/ACCORDION_REPAIR_3.php)

Very interesting (edit: and informative) article.

Do reeds typically go out of tune in in a consistent direction, ie flat vs sharp, or do they go out randomly, some flat and some sharp? (My guess is that they go out randomly, based on what caused each individual reed to go out of tune.)

 

[pitzelberger]

Very interesting article.

Do reeds typically go out of tune in in a consistent direction, ie flat vs sharp, or do they go out randomly, some flat and some sharp? (My guess is that they go out randomly, based on what caused each individual reed to go out of tune.)

I have found them more often to go up, but that’s just based on empirical evidence with the few accordions I have tuned.

 

[dak]

Yes, I play with stringed instruments - guitars, violin, and bass. I use an accordion that is tuned to A440 when I get together with them. I would like to use the one that is currently tuned to 443 because it is lighter and has a pleasantly unique timbre that speaks to me.

They can always tune to me, except I think that the violinist hears absolute pitches rather than relative intervals, so that could be a problem.

Try it one session. I would think that people with absolute hearing can adapt to ensemble pitch to some degree, and string instruments (as opposed to wind instruments) stay entirely consistent when tuned up/down. So the fingers have nothing new to do, and the ears may manage adapting outside of pure solo passages.

And when you state that the instrument you'd rather play has a "pleasantly unique timbre", that may be a selling point to your other ensemble members, making them not mind the slight annoyance of tuning more than usual before and after your sessions. Be sure to make your instrument appear at its best at the tryout session; if necessary, wait until you are practising something you know to work particularly well.

 

[debra]

I am playing in an ensemble with two clarinets and a guitar. The clarinetists were actually quite happy, when they learned that I own some (old) accordions tuned to 443 and 444, since 443 seems still to be the standard in German orchestras and as well the base tuning of their instruments. (Playing at 440 seems possible for them, but, as they explained, more tiring than playing at their base 443 or at the higher 444.) The guitarist had to invest 15 bucks into a new tuning device, where he can adjust the base frequency. Now we are all happy .

Actually the standard in German accordion orchestras is 440Hz. Other types of orchestras may be playing at 442 or 443...
German accordion orchestras are dominated by Hohner accordions and almost all have a default tuning of 440Hz.