Accordion sound samples for MIDI + digital accordion. Ketron/Cavagnolo/V3 Accordion or another ?

[Matt654]

Hi,

I have bought Bugari EVO. The accordion sounds produced through ( even through headset) doesn't sound much real, mainly bass side.
Therefore I am wondering to use MIDI + an expander/or is there any another device yet just with sounds samples. I have read some articles about ketron SD90 or Digit Air from Cavagnolo ( which sounds as French type of accordion mostly - not sure if this will be ok) or V3 Accordion Master XXL.

Not sure which one is the best to get real accordion sounds. I need to use it only for folk music. Or is there any other device with real sound samples ?

Thank you for advice
M

 

[JerryPH]

If you want real accordion sounds... why not play a real accordion?

 

[Airy]

Hi Matt,
you can find many postings in this forum which deal with this topic.

Probably you should consider:

• At least the accordion samples in the FR8x are considered to be quite good (I was thinking the EVO uses the same). Often, a little editing helps a lot (if this is possible with the EVO - it is with the Roland FR8x).
  • edit the sounds yourself in the instrument or with external editor
  • load 3rd party sounds
• If you feel comfortable with computers try special sample-player software with accordion sound libraries. This is probably the best you can get soundwise, but maybe not the best for live playing.
  see: https://www.accordionists.info/threads/midi-accordion-sound-expansions-but-on-the-computer.10219/
• As you already mentioned: external hardware expanders are an option. But I personally doubt that they have better accordion sounds than the Evo itself. They are mostly developed to give you are broad variety of different instrument emulations for "pop music". There are specialized expanders for single instrument types like piano, yes, but I never came across a device which is specialized on accordion types.
• When you consider one of the above suggestions be aware that you need totally different sounds to make an acceptable "real accordion" emulation depending on whether you (and your audience) listen(s) on (good / bad) headphones OR the built-in speakers of the Evo OR on (good / bad) external monitor or PA speakers. For example the reverberation part of the sound has to be totally different if you want the sounds come "natural". This is the first parameter I would adjust if the Evo allows editing.

 

[debra]

Hi Matt,
you can find many postings in this forum which deal with this topic.

Probably you should consider:

• At least the accordion samples in the FR8x are considered to be quite good (I was thinking the EVO uses the same). Often, a little editing helps a lot (if this is possible with the EVO - it is with the Roland FR8x).
  • edit the sounds yourself in the instrument or with external editor
  • load 3rd party sounds
• If you feel comfortable with computers try special sample-player software with accordion sound libraries. This is probably the best you can get soundwise, but maybe not the best for live playing.
  see: https://www.accordionists.info/threads/midi-accordion-sound-expansions-but-on-the-computer.10219/
• ...

Opinions on the accordion sounds of the FR8x (and related models like FR4x) vary a lot, from more or less acceptable to pretty bad. I have read very few reports calling the sounds "quite good".
I don't know the details but the possibilities in new sound creation are a bit more limited on the Bugari EVO than on the Roland FR8x. I don't know exactly what that was done, but for instance, Bugari has never tried to give the EVO accordion sounds that approach those of (higher end) Bugari accordions and I believe the EVO also lacks the ability to do so (but the FR8x might have such possibility).
Some people do find that the EVO sounds a bit better than the FR8x, but the difference is due to the "box" and not to the programmed sounds. When using external speakers the sound should be the same (meaning, equally bad).
It appears that Roland lost interest in the V-accordion (nothing released since 2016). I believe it's fair to say that the approach of creating believable accordion sounds using "sound modeling" rather than "sound sampling" was a failure, just like it was with the early digital pianos. (Later digital pianos, including Roland, all use sound samples from real grand pianos.)

 

[JerryPH]

The thing for me is that I really like the accordion sounds that my 8X makes, certainly not all of them, but I will say that I find the majority of the pleasing to me, however if someone is wanting "authentic accordion sounds" from a MIDI, if you are a bit of a purist, you are wasting your time, there is no electronic/digital variant that sounds exactly like an acoustic, and so, if someone falls in to that group, you are basically wasting your time on digital instruments.

If, however, you kind of like what you hear AND want the endless varieties of sounds and variations and practically limitless combinations that is when the digital accordion will be most pleasing for you.

I kind of sway back and forth between both worlds and really enjoy both, and though I sometimes even pound on the "inadequacies" of the EVO, its an incredible box, without doubt!

 

[Ventura]

i do not understand, Matt

the EVO and the Schwyzerörgeli are about as different in every
way as is possible, and you specifically say you want your
instrument for Folk Music and you are Swiss

so why on earth did you buy an EVO in the first place?
did some incredibly persuasive salesman tell you many Lies ?

are you wealthy and already have a Ferrari
and a Villa in Montrose?

do the tables of Monte Carlo bore you ?

so now that you realize this incredibly expensive EVO accordion thing
does not suit itself to your needs, you want to gamble
thousands more EURO's hoping to possibly make it suitable
(but ruin the concept of portability in the process)

i do not understand

and i apologize for my confusion

but this does seem amazing

 

[mbaggio65]

I agree with Jerry on this topic. When you get the Roland FR8x out of the box (and the same for the Bugari EVO) it may not sound as you expect it to sound. That was a complain I heard a lot. When I got my first Roland 10 years back I was lucky to get Richard Noels sets which made them sound much better. With a some tweaking you can get it pretty close to an acoustic. I was able to reconfigure mine so it sound "almost" like my 35 year old Hohner Morino. What makes a difference might be the speaker system. I do not play with the internal speakers at all. Mine rattle in particular on the left hand side.

Secondly I have also external expanders like a Roland BK7m or the Ketron SD90. They accordion sounds there are good, but not as good as a good programmed FR8x or Bugari.

You can get pre-programmed user sets Richard Noel, Dale Mathis or Michael Bridge.
Markus

 

[John M]

I love the variety of sounds I have on my 8X – Accordion, Orchestral, and Organ.

On the Accordion reed sounds, I can pick an accordion Bassoon 16’ reed in cassotto to get a very realistic Art Van Damm sound. I actually like the deep, very smooth, velvety tone I can get with my Bose better than the tone of his acoustic. The sound of my FR-8X is enhanced with the use of my Bose L1 Compact and Bose T4S Mixer. Shaping the tone with the equalizer is very important in creating a realistic sound. With a quick tap on the mixer, I can switch from bypass to equalizer mode. I never play my 8X (at home or for a group) without the Bose system.

I am happy with two of the piano orchestral sounds I have on my FR-8X (Natural Piano & Rock Piano). I can get the smooth tone of a grand piano or the higher pitched “plink” of an upright piano using the equalizer on the mixer. I like the upright piano sound on my 8X of the song -- “The Entertainer”.
Are the sounds of the accordion and piano a perfect representations of the acoustic instruments? I don’t know and I don’t care. I do know, the groups that I play for, really enjoy my songs and the sounds of the 8X.

I also love the Organ Tonewheel sound engine on the 8X. The designer patterned all the controls/settings identical to the classic Hammond B3. Does it sound exactly like my B3 and 122 Leslie. No, it is difficult to duplicate the tonewheel crosswalk, distortion of a tube amp, sound of the nine vertical key contacts (they don’t all “hit” at the same time) that occurs when you depress a key on a B3. The 8X only has one contact under each key. All of these idiosyncrasies give the B3 a sound that the purists must have. For me the 8X tonewheel engine is 99% there and is good enough for me. Also, the 8X is portable and doesn’t weigh 400 lbs. The Neo Micro Vent 122 (the size of a pack of cigarettes) does a fantastic job of simulating the Leslie 122. It has a pedal switch that duplicates the Leslie Tremolo/Chorale switch. It also, has a Tremolo/Stop mode. The rotor “spool up” and “wind down” time is also adjustable.

 

[Matt654]

Hi,

thank you for your answer.
I was forced to buy digital accordion if i want to practise in my apartment/flat silently otherwise i would buy acoustic/real accordion. I was wondering if there are any real "sound sampling" accordions sound "device" which i can use to have more realistic sound.

The issue i face much is bass part ( of course bass doesn't sound like it would be coming from real accordion but i would welcome a bit modification to have it more bassy but not so much as it is on heligon accordion ) I have tried to tweak it but no help as there is limitation about sound modulation etc. , next part is treble part, i would say it is quite good but sound quality is not nice in whole righthand scale. It means there are sounds which are ok in one octave but in higher or lower octave the sound is not so "clear".

I would like to share my observation about some additional sound sets i have bought ( it might help to other...)
I have bought sound set from https://gertnijkamp.nl/product-categorie/v-accordion-premium-sound-packs/fr-8x/
the Gola one ( it is quite ok) I tried tweak it a bit, still face the issues above but generally i can survive.
I have bought one from https://accordionmusicandlessons.com/digital.htm , the Essentials Collection / Acoustic Edition too. No help much to solve issues above.
I would say that we are very close to limits/maximum what Bugari EV is able to model/produce.

Anyway, thank you for adivces/help. If i will find any option i will share result in this forum, so far i found Digit Air Millenium ( https://cavagnolo.com/en/accordeon/performances-millenium/ ) where they claim that each sound is recorded.
Not sure about quality of the accordions etc. ( this is another story) plus it looks that their accordions don't have internal speaker ( which would be ok for me for just practising at home) but the price is muuuch out of my budget for digital accordion

Matt

 

[JerryPH]

You can get pre-programmed user sets Richard Noel, Dale Mathis or Michael Bridge.

Dale Mathis sounds only come if you purchase the accordion from him or his affiliate accordion provider.

 

[Ventura]

ok, sounds like you are not afraid to do your own
tweaking of sounds

compared to tweaking on a Synth, the roland accordion
soundsets are frozen at the factory.. you cannot alter them
or how they develop

however

what you CAN do, which can sometimes produce similar results
to. say, tweaking a resonance filter, is to look at the FX options
in depth, and spend some time in there.. Surprisingly, Roland gives
almost infinite access to a lot of the FX tonality and timing parameters..

if you get to figuring them out, you may have some luck altering the actual
sound and reaction of the reed envelopes through this "back door" approach

it is very irregular to change tonality this way, but it can work.. i did
this to some extent with my programming on the original FR7

good luck

 

[Sandy Flett]

I did not notice any reference to the Roy Hendrie accordion samples - https://royhendriemusic.co.uk/sound-module - which are highly relevant for folk/Celtic accordion (see page 9 of User Manual - accessed via Support button).

 

[Ventura]

my dear Debra

i am resurrecting this thread to bring an interesting ability of the FR4x
to your attention

there apparently is a sub-routine in the software,
similar to the pedal coupler on an Organ than brings the
pedal pipes under control of the lower keyboard

you can route the left hand bass reeds, and footages,
including the Helikon reedset simulations,
as well as the orchestral bass like the Tuba sound
to the right hand treble keys/buttons

in other words, the FR4x can be "converted" into a Bass Accordion

it seemed to me that, based on other posts u have made and your
varied interests and compositions and ensemble needs,
that this capability might make a used and reasonably priced FR4x chromatic
a bit more potentially useful and compelling for you

i am currently experimenting with one, and have been using the editor
as well as perusing my printed out copy of the manuals
(when on the Throne and have time to read them)
noticed this capability and thought of you

as far as the accordion sounds are concerned, i can also report
there is enough editing control built in to allow for a good bit
of improvement by ear, so don't be too concerned about the
reported quality of reed soundsets as long as you don't mind
a bit of time consuming tweaking

it took me a week, but i de-noised and mellowed out a complex
mixed reedset to match my excelsior 960 quite closely..

ciao

Ventura

 

[JerryPH]

i am currently experimenting with one, and have been using the editor
as well as perusing my printed out copy of the manuals
(when on the Throne and have time to read them)
noticed this capability and thought of you

Now that is using one's time effectively... LOL!

 

[Tom]

Good work! But can this bring drum sounds to right hand?

 

[JerryPH]

According to the manual, it cannot. that was a bit of a bummer when you and I found that in the manual.

 

[retrimermiles]

The Ketron SD90 and Cavagnolo Digit Air are both great options for creating realistic French-style accordion sounds. The V3 Accordion Master XXL is another great choice, as it offers a wide range of realistic sounding samples. However, if you're looking for a more affordable option, then you may want to consider the Roland FR8X. This is a budget-friendly expander that still provides a wide range of realistic sounding accordion samples.

 

[Mockie]

If you want real accordion sounds... why not play a real accordion?

I totally agree with Jerry. If the Bugari EVO is not suitable why would you want to spend more money on top the expensive Bugari getting more electronic simulations of the accordion. I have 2 acoustic accordions and the Roland FR8X. I do play the acoustic occasionally, I thinks that's important for technique etc. I love the accordion sounds in the FR8X and generally the listeners regard it as a real accordion not a gadget. I play accordion sounds only not orchestral ( except on the bass side, on top of my accordion bass sounds). I have got some beautiful sound sets from the Netherlands. I have great French musette sounds as well double octave sounds for tangos etc. I basically have the best of both worlds.

 

[Thomas N]

I've been playing my FR-8X for somewhere around 9 years now. I have only two or three accordion sounds that I use consistently. They sound very, very good. I use an organ/string bass to replicate the old Cordovox walking string bass I grew up playing.

There are some very bad accordion and instrument samples on the FR-8X. The ones I use are not.