Any opinions on 10 year old Borsini Vienna K10 CBA?

[yc360]

It's a straight (swing) tuning. LMMH 4/5 duo chamber 92(46)/120. The demo video makes all 11 treble switches sound similar(?), is this because of the swing tuning? How's Borsini stack up against other makes such as Scandalli, Pigini, etc? Appreciate your expert opinions and thank you all {} !

 

[debra]

Its a straight (swing) tuning. LMMH 4/5 duo chamber 92(46)/120. The demo video makes all 11 treble switches sound similar(?), is this because of the swing tuning? Hows Borsini stack up against other makes such as Scandalli, Pigini, etc? Appreciate your expert opinions and thank you all {} !

A Vienna K10 is supposed to have cassotto which should make the different registers sound distinctly different. The LM register should have a much more mellow than the MH (played one octave lower). The straight tuning of course is very different from a musette tuning, but there should still be quite a difference in sound between the registers. (That tuning is not all that hard to change and if you can get a really good deal on the accordion it may be worth getting a professional tuner do the job.)
You should be aware that Borsini instruments are a bit delicate (resulting in light weight) so you have to check carefully that there are no hidden cracks. And also check whether the instrument is A=440 or A=442 depending on what you want. (I believe Borsini used to do A=442 by default.)

 

[donn]

If this isnt the video - 2203 - Borsini Vienna K10 Chromatic Button 5 Row C System Double Tone Chamber LMMH 92 120 $4995 - I suppose its close enough to serve as a proxy.

Dont take me for any kind of expert, but my guess is its 1) partly as you surmise, the dry tuning diminishes the distinctions, 2) youd hear much more difference if he ran the length the of keyboard, instead of a handful of notes in the middle, and 3) the reeds just arent very bright to start with, so the tone chamber doesnt make so much difference.

 

[yc360]

Yes, Donn. That is exactly the box I am talking about. Mike the owner of Liberty Bellows agreed to post a better demo on the their website. Too bad I am thousands miles away from Philly. Would be great if I could try it out myself. Hidden defects are very hard to find without opening it up plus close examination. But Ive worked with Mike for a while and hes very diligent about the instrument so I trust him. What do you guys think about the price? From the limited demo video I got the impression that this K10 seems to have the voice of depth and impact I only got from the PAs (from other demo videos and the boxes I have). Somehow CBAs dont have that umph when you hit the lower quarter bassoon reeds like those from say, Scandalli Super VI, Paolo Soprani Super Paolo PA. My good old Morino iv m is much smaller and lighter weight than the Artiste iv d or xi n. But it clearly has deeper bassoon and organ sound for some reason. Liberty Bellow sold a Paolo Sporani Super Paolo ( . Surprise, a Borsini! Certainly not the one Liberty Bellows is selling . My question is: does CBA has to cost an arm and a leg to sound as powerful as, say a similar sized PA Super Paolo or Super 6? Is there something inherently different for CBA or just my ears or the boxes I happened to have? {}

 

[donn]

My question is: does CBA has to cost an arm and a leg to sound as powerful as, say a similar sized PA Super Paolo or Super 6? Is there something inherently different for CBA or just my ears or the boxes I happened to have? {}

Well, there are a couple of issues intersecting here. One of them is the market - accordions are not at their all time peak of popularity and there are a lot of great used accordions on the market competing for not many buyers. Piano accordions. CBAs might run into a little of that, you have to consider that the buyer group is very small, but the mountain of old accordions on the market arent CBAs. So you can get a better piano accordion for the same money, sure.

Is there an inherent difference? No.

Is it your ears? No, but it sure could be the microphones youre listening to. Whatever that guy in Brazil is doing to record that Paulo Soprani, it seems very likely a different microphone etc. than the setup at Liberty Bellows, and that probably goes through some changes itself. Of course that doesnt apply to accordions you have on hand to listen to directly ... but it might be interesting, if you have a confederate who could play notes for you, do the same differences apply when youre listening, as when youre playing? You can get a sort half-hearted preview of this by playing facing a highly audio-reflective wall, tile show stall or something like that.

 

[yc360]

But the impact and clarity from the PAs seem to be pretty consistent on YouTube comparing to those from CBAs, except those high class pro CBA boxes, which clearly are priced in a different league by themselves. The K10 at liberty bellows sounded quite a bit stronger and somewhat comparable to the cassotto PAs they have. Could this just be my wishful thinking? I prefer CBA over PA because my smallish hands, even though coming from piano and keyboard background. Going vertical turned out quite a sea change for me. The years on the piano didn't give me much headway as I thought it would. CBA suddenly expanded my hands reach on the accordion I couldn't easily duplicate on PAs. Anyway, guess good CBAs aren't easy to find anywhere, non-existing around here on Craig's list, yard sale, ads, or any where else. By the way, I did see the Brazilian play other not so good PAs in similar setting, the impact is not as great like the super 6 or super Paolo.
What is your opinion on the sound and tuning of the K10 in that video? What I am really after is a CBA that sounds like the super 6 or the super paolo the Brazilian guy played. Maybe this K10 just won't do, as much as I wish it would. Re-tuning needs a real good tuner I don't think can be found around here. 60 years ago in San Francisco maybe, but not now. I am thinking someday I'll visit Italy just to walk in to the store and try out their CBAs to make sure my bias is wrong. Many of the folks on this forum are with years of accordion experience and expertise. I really appreciate all your well informed opinions and advise. Thanks.

 

[debra]

If this isnt the video - 2203 - Borsini Vienna K10 Chromatic Button 5 Row C System Double Tone Chamber LMMH 92 120 $4995 - I suppose its close enough to serve as a proxy...

I watched this video and the differences between the registers are very clear to me.
That video (caption) mentions a $4995 price. If this is US $ it is a fair price if the instrument is recent (less than 10 years old). Generally speaking this instrument with its dry tuning could be a bit difficult to sell because dry tuning is mainly found on convertor instruments. If they were to retune it to a mild tremolo (say 14 to 16 cents) it would definitely sell for $4995.

 

[debra]

But the impact and clarity from the PAs seem to be pretty consistent on YouTube comparing to those from CBAs, except those high class pro CBA boxes, which clearly are priced in a different league by themselves. The K10 at liberty bellows sounded quite a bit stronger and somewhat comparable to the cassotto PAs they have. Could this just be my wishful thinking? ...

You bring up an interesting point. I have briefly discussed this myself in earlier posts. There are essentially two types of CBAs: those that are essentially a PA but with a different keyboard versus those that have a completely different construction than a PA.
The Borsini K10 CBA is very likely to be internally identical to a K10 PA. The reed blocks in many 41-key PAs have a few unused slots and actually have enough room for 46 notes worth of reeds. So despite the difference that a K10 PA has 41 notes and the K10 CBA has 46 it can be identical inside and as a result also produce identical sound. I had a Bugari 285/ARS (PA) before and later got the Bugari 505/ARS (CBA) and the sound was identical because the instrument was identical (except for having a different keyboard and using the already available slots in the reed blocks to fit the 46 notes).
The same is almost true for my Hohner Artiste X (CBA) versus a Hohner Morino VI (PA). Almost because here the reed blocks are different in order to fit 56 notes instead of 45. But the Hohner Artiste X is constructed just like the Morino VI.
The real CBA accordions that have no PA equivalent have the keyboard positioned further away from the players body. This can be a bit (for instance on the Bugari 508/ARS/C and 540/ARS/C) or much more (for instance on the Bugari 580/ARS/C and all Bayan models).
I guess we could call this the difference between a CBA accordion and a CBA bayan. The CBA accordions with the keyboard positioned where a PA keyboard would be will sound exactly like their PC counterpart whereas the CBA bayans have a different look, feel and sound.

 

[maugein96]

Hi yc360,

That looks like a really nice instrument, but to be honest the sound samples are not doing it any justice whatsoever. You are asking Liberty Bellows for a better demo. I hate to say it, but the only way you're going to hear what that accordion can do is if it was played by someone who actually plays C system CBA. A few notes or arpeggios in the middle of the keyboard with constant coupler changes in a demo is not sufficient.

As Paul DeBra says the difference in the registers are there, and if the changes are not very perceptible to you, it appear you may be looking for a "wetter" tuned accordion which offers a bit more variety of sounds?

Seems you already own one or two CBAs. Are you starting a collection, or beginning a quest to find the perfect instrument? I went down that very same latter road, and wasted an awful lot of money in the process. I also considered switching to PA based on greater availability of instruments, but various forum members fortunately advised me against it.

All the technical issues highlighted in the other posts are beyond my knowledge, but if you have already started to play CBA it would probably be better to stick with it. With experience, you'll eventually work out what type(s) of instrument you require, and it might be quite a while before anything suitable becomes available. If you buy an accordion on a whim, or based on somebody else's opinion, then you are literally pouring money down the drain, regardless of how prestigious the make.

 

[donn]

I guess we could call this the difference between a CBA accordion and a CBA bayan. The CBA accordions with the keyboard positioned where a PA keyboard would be will sound exactly like their PC counterpart whereas the CBA bayans have a different look, feel and sound.

Id be unhappy to have you call my accordion a bayan, though. I believe this shape is also common to the French CBAs, and Italians made for that market. In mine, the space behind the keyboard serves as the grille for L reeds - something like a tone chamber here, though I gather not exactly the same as commonly done today. (Previous owner installed thick tape over the grille, by the way - I removed the tape.)

 

[debra]

I guess we could call this the difference between a CBA accordion and a CBA bayan. The CBA accordions with the keyboard positioned where a PA keyboard would be will sound exactly like their PC counterpart whereas the CBA bayans have a different look, feel and sound.

Id be unhappy to have you call my accordion a bayan, though. I believe this shape is also common to the French CBAs, and Italians made for that market. In mine, the space behind the keyboard serves as the grille for L reeds - something like a tone chamber here, though I gather not exactly the same as commonly done today. (Previous owner installed thick tape over the grille, by the way - I removed the tape.)[/quote]
Didnt want to make anyone unhappy. I just wanted to indicate that there is a fundamental difference, resulting in a different look, feel (key pressure) and sound, between accordions with the keyboard close to the players body and those with the keyboard further away. There is no official difference in name for this as far as I know, just like there is no real definition of what distinguishes an accordion from a bayan.

 

[donn]

It seems to me bayan most usefully refers to a type of B griff accordion made in Russia and Eastern Europe, particularly with a characteristic bass construction and sound, but by extension any B griff CBA. If used to distinguish one type of CBA from another, those are the types I'd expect to be talking about.

Would you expect a CBA with the keyboard farther from the body, to reliably also be deeper? It's something I'm quite aware of because I have looked for a hard case for mine, but it's a full 10 inches deep and cases made for piano accordions are too shallow. I walked over to the Petosa shop, which is in my neighborhood, and when I inquired about a case of those dimensions, he knew right away what kind of accordion it would be for ... but I don't remember what he called it, probably French style CBA.

 

[debra]

It seems to me bayan most usefully refers to a type of B griff accordion made in Russia and Eastern Europe, particularly with a characteristic bass construction and sound, but by extension any B griff CBA. If used to distinguish one type of CBA from another, those are the types Id expect to be talking about.

Would you expect a CBA with the keyboard farther from the body, to reliably also be deeper? Its something Im quite aware of because I have looked for a hard case for mine, but its a full 10 inches deep and cases made for piano accordions are too shallow. I walked over to the Petosa shop, which is in my neighborhood, and when I inquired about a case of those dimensions, he knew right away what kind of accordion it would be for ... but I dont remember what he called it, probably French style CBA.

Alas, its not that simple. How deep a CBA is depends mostly on the number of reed blocks that are needed. As an example: my wife plays on a Bugari 508/ARS/C, which has 2 reed blocks in cassotto and 2 reed blocks out of cassotto. It is about 21cm deep. I use a Bugari 540/ARS/C which is in fact smaller but it has 3 reed blocks in cassotto and 3 out of cassotto. It is about 23cm deep. On both the position of the keyboard is about the same. I used to have a 505/ARS which has 2 blocks in cassotto and 3 out of cassotto. It is also about 23cm deep. De depth of the accordion is dependent entirely on the number of reed blocks out of cassotto. The reed blocks in cassotto are at a 90 degree angle and thus it doesnt matter whether there are 2 or 3.

As for whether something is a bayan... I am awaiting a C griff AKKO, which I would definitely classify as being a bayan. It has full length reed plates, 16+16 deep bass. It is in fact identical to the equivalent B griff model except for the keyboard (and convertor) layout. Italian brands also use the term bayan for instruments with the keyboard further from the body but having separate reeds (except maybe for the lowest basses). The real difference between an accordion and a bayan is the shape of the reeds, which is something you dont see on the outside and you need an expert to see it on the inside. A bayan reed is closer to rectangular and an accordion reed is clearly trapezoid (narrower at the tip than at the base). But the Italians sell instruments they call bayan yet have trapezoidal accordion reeds... so the debate will probably never be sold. All I can say is that the difference between what is really a bayan and what is really an accordion is in the sound. (And that sound is different when you use rectangular or trapezoidal reeds. The shape determines the harmonics. I would compare the difference to that between traditional woodwind instruments (oboe, clarinet...) and saxophones.

 

[donn]

depth of the accordion is dependent entirely on the number of reed blocks out of cassotto. The reed blocks in cassotto are at a 90 degree angle and thus it doesnt matter whether there are 2 or 3.

Well, yes, so when I referred to something like tone chamber/cassotto in my Fratelli Crosio, I was exaggerating. The reed blocks all face the same way, and the L reeds are only muted a bit by their rear-facing grille exposure and some other funkiness. So 5 blocks deep (L is on two blocks.)

Do the 90 degree blocks open out to the rear of the keyboard? If were ascribing a different sound to this shape, it would be evident in certain reeds, and others would open to the front just like a piano accordion?

 

[debra]

depth of the accordion is dependent entirely on the number of reed blocks out of cassotto. The reed blocks in cassotto are at a 90 degree angle and thus it doesnt matter whether there are 2 or 3.

Well, yes, so when I referred to something like tone chamber/cassotto in my Fratelli Crosio, I was exaggerating. The reed blocks all face the same way, and the L reeds are only muted a bit by their rear-facing grille exposure and some other funkiness. So 5 blocks deep (L is on two blocks.)

Do the 90 degree blocks open out to the rear of the keyboard? If were ascribing a different sound to this shape, it would be evident in certain reeds, and others would open to the front just like a piano accordion?[/quote]
An accordion without cassotto can be around 20cm deep with 4 reed blocks, 22 or 23 with 5 reed blocks and there are even some with 6 reed blocks and thus even deeper.
All cassotto instruments I have seen have the reed blocks in cassotto mounted such that the cassotto opening is furthest from the players body, meaning more or less behind the register switches. They cannot be facing the other way because that would be incompatible with the direction the valves (pallets) move when pressing keys. The difference in sound is due to the shape of the box and the position of the keyboard is part of that. Frankly I must say that the difference in sound between say a Bugari 505/ARS with a PA-style keyboard position and a Bugari 580/ARS/C with the keyboard much further from the players body is still smaller than the difference between that 580 and a Russian bayan using large multi-reed plates with rectangular bayan reeds.

Returning to the original accordion this thread is about: that Borsini will sound just like its PA counterpart because it essentially *is* a PA with a CBA keyboard.

 

[yc360]

Just got the box from Liberty Bellows in perfect packaging. Only one of the 7 chord button doesn't connect to one of the chord, which makes it sound like a minor chord. After a little tweak the problem is solved and the Borsini is perfect! It sounds a whole better than in those demo videos! It's balanced, bright, brilliant, sharp, and deep. The box is surprisingly small but not that light weight at 26 lb. The swing tuning sounds so much better in real and this is the sound I am looking for indeed. The switches and buttons are quick and light to the touch, very responsive. The bass is clear and deep without being overwhelming. In comparison, the Hohner Morino Artiste XI N bass isn't too loud at all, just the treble is kinda quiet in comparison for some reason. Only wish the Borsini had a few more buttons like the Morino Artiste. Really love the range on the old Morino Artiste iv D (102 buttons covering full 5 octave!). Guess can have them all, eh? :roll:

Thank you all! :ch {} :tup:

 

[pcechan]

If this isnt the video - 2203 - Borsini Vienna K10 Chromatic Button 5 Row C System Double Tone Chamber LMMH 92 120 $4995 - I suppose its close enough to serve as a proxy...

I watched this video and the differences between the registers are very clear to me.
That video (caption) mentions a $4995 price. If this is US $ it is a fair price if the instrument is recent (less than 10 years old). Generally speaking this instrument with its dry tuning could be a bit difficult to sell because dry tuning is mainly found on convertor instruments. If they were to retune it to a mild tremolo (say 14 to 16 cents) it would definitely sell for $4995.[/quote]

Do you play the chromatic button C system yourself ? I have a Hohner Nova II 60 A, 4-row chromatic button C. I need some help in designing the right hand fingering. Can you help me out on this?

 

[debra]

...
Do you play the chromatic button C system yourself ? I have a Hohner Nova II 60 A, 4-row chromatic button C. I need some help in designing the right hand fingering. Can you help me out on this?

I play the C system and so does my wife. We already use different fingering between the two of us. Because the system is so compact and because the 4rd (and in our case 5th) row gives you redundancy there are so many choices in fingering... its hard to give advice, especially since I used to play PA and got to figure most CBA fingering stuff by myself. I only have some basic fingering tips from my wife who took a few lessons.
So people here who are native CBA C-system players can give better advice than I possibly could.

 

[donn]

Yes, we're getting into territory where there are many roads forward. I think if I were starting now, I would learn to use the 3 outer rows. Because it's a bit of a problem - on various instruments - when I have a choice between two ways to do the same thing. That can certainly be overcome, or else no one would be able to play the guitar, but it does add a level of complexity to the process. Within the outside three rows, there's only one button for each note, so there's never any question. And I could list video after video of fabulous players who appear to use only the 3 outside rows.