Opinions on Beltuna Leader IV

[Fredson96]

in the latest photos, beltunareeds1-jpeg.9903 and beltunareeds2-jpeg.9904 are both
M reedsets, opposite sides of the same reedblock, and they absolutely correspond
with the beltuna03-png.9798 and beltuna04-png.9799 from your original upload of
photo's, and which are referenced in the debra post, and which are absolutely
positively the out of chamber mounting location.

therefore

"....Nevertheless, the seller ......... new info. The H castle is not in the chamber: the M one
corresponding to the clarinet is. Indeed, " FALSE

not true at all

the high reed cannot possibly be anywhere else but in the chamber, on the opposite side
of the same reedblock as the L bassoon reedset, period.

the white strip of stuff clearly runs the length of the reedblock and was intended
to bridge the gap between the shorter P reedplates and the original M reedplates,
it is quite obvious on the sharps side, but you can see it in spots on the naturals
side as well. OBVIOUSLY A MODIFICATION and not the work of Beltuna

the white stuff does not look to be a material well suited to WAX and WOOD,
and so i judge this to be an ongoing problem which will need to be removed
and replaced before reedwax begins to fall off and cause other problems..
indeed in beltunareeds7-jpeg.9909 you can clearly see several fissures which are
lifting and possily leaking air and need re-sealed immediately

so the usefulness of Piccolo reeds in chamber can be argued as opinion,
but there is no argument that these piccolo reeds are not the original reeds,
and that they do not/cannot match the original reeds for Quality and Value
UNLESS THEY WERE PROVIDED BY BELTUNA directly to the technician that
performed this modification (unlikely)

this accordion is hopelessly compromised in my opinion, you couldn't
give it to me, it is useless to me or anyone who uses their chambered M reed
often as a solo voice

sorry.. the pictures tell the story and it is a sad story

the other problem is that the M reedset that was removed and replaced
was the "a:440" while the two M reedsets opposite each other were the
M- and M+ .. that means this accordion has no hope to sound like a
normal/typical LMMH because of the original meusette tuning spread

basically, this beltuna has been ruined for anyone except the earlier owner
who obviously had these changes made to suit his personal preference.
it probably should have been buried with him

You were 100% on the money. We requested him to double check with his technician (i.e., his employee that opened the Beltuna and took the reed blocks out) and, indeed, the H reed block is the one on the chamber. Turns out, however, this was not done by the previous owner. Someone did this absolute garbage modifications to transform this Beltuna into a LMMH model that's easier to sell in Brazil. Literarly a piss-poor job to earn a quick buck. The seller himself realized this. The guy's honnest, you could see the disappointment in his eyes as we discussed these issues. In any case, I'll write a new post with the current state of affairs. I believe this to be the end of this saga. Let's go for the closure )>'-')>

 

[Fredson96]

Again, we'd like to thank everyone who pointed out the issues, who helped us with valuable information and who shared with us their thoughtful opinions. This is quite an expensive instrument, and the amount of details can be overwhelming. Without you guys, terrible decisions could've been made. From the bottom of our hearts, we thank you all <3

So, I believe this to be the end of this "saga". We contacted Beltuna, sent them the videos, photos and all the info we got. First and foremost: a big shoutout to them. They were 100% polite and willing to help and talk to us, even though they weren't obliged. I won't tell the names of the people who spoke of us for obvious reasons. However, in case they ever read this thread for whatever reason, I want them to know that, whenever I travel to Castelfidardo: I'll find Beltuna, I'll find you, and I'll... purchase a brand new Leader IV from you. You guys are incredible <3

Based on everything we showed them, they were sure that all the modifications weren't done by them (as we all knew, given the garbage quality). However, they believe that, apart from the reeds themselves, everything else looks original and quite well conserved. After talking to the seller in a video call, the poor guy hypothesised that this accordion was modified this was just to make it more marketable in Brazil. As sad as this is, this kind of thing is unfortunately common. I do believe he knew nothing about this, for he is very reputable and looked visibly disappointed during the conversation.

Speaking with the people from Beltuna, I asked the following question, mostly out of curiosity. Since everything's original apart from the piccolo reeds, would it be possible to do things right? Buy a new set of piccolo and clarinet reeds, and have a good professional turn this into a "true" LMMH (i.e., bassoon and clarinet on the chamber, piccolo and flute out)? If it'd be possible, would they deem worth it? I imagined (as would many people, I reckon) that they'd say no. First and foremost, it's on their best interest to sell new accordions, since second hand ones don't exactly make them profit. Secondly, I imagine they wouldn't like to make such recommendation if the accordion would turn out terrible in the end (I doubt such a reputable brand would do something like this). And, still, they answered "yes, it's possible". Since the reed blocks themselves are original and (as far as they could see) undamaged, if a good professional makes the correct modifications, the instrument can become a good LMMH (not perfect, naturally, but good). I told this information to them both (mostly for the seller's knowledge), as well as pointed to the obvious fact, despite being possible, it isn't worth it money-wise, so it's best to not even consider such route.

As far as I'm concerned, this whole story is over. Even if the instrument is still salvageable, the sunk cost fallacy is too strong with this whole situation. To put more money and time into something so convoluted would be very silly. And yet, unsurprisingly (to me at least, although I'm sure some of you guys will probably be bewildered), my friend told me "I'll talk a bit more with the seller". I'm honnestly tired of this whole affair, and there's just so much you do to help someone. I was very blatant and told him the following. "I don't recommend you buy this accordion. You want to talk more with him? Suit yourself. However, unless the seller, on his own risk, gets the new sets of piccolo and clarinet reeds, have the modifications done, show you a GREAT result (not decent, not good, nothing but GREAT) AND offers it to you at the exact same price as now, forget about it. No discussion, refuse any other arrangement. Now, it's on you."

Obviously the seller won't accept this. Hopefully he'll move on now. Again, thank you guys for helping us until this point. Just goes to show how amazing this forum and its community are. Hopefully, I'll make a final post on this thread eventually when he gets his new accordion. Until then, stay safe everyone

 

[Ventura]

yes, to repair and successfully convert it to LMMH you would
install a new set of Beltuna Piccolo reeds in the current M-
position in the out of chamber reedblocks, and a new set of
M reeds for the chamber after removing the current Piccolo reeds

re-using the M- reeds is possible, but a costly re-tuning job to shift
them up to 440

and i would say send the reedblocks back to Beltuna for this, as they
have the tools and setups in their factory to do it well, though of course
a final fine tuning in the instrument would still be needed

that leaves the accordion value itself at a few thousand at most to buy
to make such a large project worth doing, and it could be worth doing
but only because there are not many good accordions available down there.

well i am glad we were able to help you analyze this "deal" and i am also
glad you have discovered the Professionalism and character of the people at Beltuna

 

[Tom]

Again, we'd like to thank everyone who pointed out the issues, who helped us with valuable information and who shared with us their thoughtful opinions. This is quite an expensive instrument, and the amount of details can be overwhelming. Without you guys, terrible decisions could've been made. From the bottom of our hearts, we thank you all <3

So, I believe this to be the end of this "saga". We contacted Beltuna, sent them the videos, photos and all the info we got. First and foremost: a big shoutout to them. They were 100% polite and willing to help and talk to us, even though they weren't oblidged. I won't tell the names of the people who spoke of us for obvious reasons. However, in case they ever read this thread for whatever reason, I want them to know that, whenever I travel to Castelfidardo: I'll find Beltuna, I'll find you, and I'll... purchase a brand new Leader IV from you. You guys are increadible <3

Based on everything we showed them, they were sure that all the modifications weren't done by them (as we all knew, given the garbage quality). However, they believe that, appart from the reeds themselves, everything else looks original and quite well conserved. After talking to the seller in a video call, the poor guy hypothised that this accordion was modified this was just to make it more marketable in Brazil. As sad as this is, this kind of thing is unfortunately common. I do believe he knew nothing about this, for he is very reputable and looked visibly disapointed during the conversation.

Speaking with the people from Beltuna, I asked the following question mostly out of curiosity. Since everything's original apart from the piccolo reeds, would it be possible to do things right? Buy a new set of piccolo and clarinet reeds, and have a good professional turn this into a "true" LMMH (i.e., basson and clarinet on the chamber, picollo and flute out)? If it'd be possible, would they deem worth it? I imagined (as would many people, I reckon) that they'd say no. First and foremost, it's on their best interest to sell new accordions, since second hand ones don't exactly make them profit. Secondly, I imagine they wouldn't like to make such recommendation if the accordion would turn out terrible in the end (I doubt such a reputable brand would do something like this). And, still, they answered "yes, it's possible". Since the reed blocks themselves are original and (as far as they could see) undamaged, if a good professional makes the correct modifications, the instrument can become a good LMMH (not perfect, naturally, but good). I informed this information for them both (mostly for the seller's knowledge), as well as pointed to the obvious fact, despite being possible, it isn't worth it money-wise, so it's best to not even consider such route.

As far as I'm concerned, this whole story is over. Even if the instrument is still salvageable, the sunk cost fallacy is too strong with this whole situation. To put more money and time into something so convoluted sould be very silly. And yet, unsurprisingly (to me at least, although I'm sure some of you guys will probably be bewildered), he told me "I'll talk a bit more with him". I'm honnestly tired of this whole affair, and there's just so much you do to help someone. I was very blatant and told him the follosing. "I don't recommend you buy this accordion. You want to talk more with him? Suit yourself. Unless the seller, on his own risk, gets the new sets of piccolo and clarinet reeds, have the modifications done, show you a GREAT result (not decent, not good, nothing but GREAT) AND offers it to you at the exact same price as now, forget about it. No discussion, refuse any other arrangement. Now, it's on you."

Obviously the seller won't accept this. Hopefully he'll move on now. Again, thank you guys for helping us until this point. Just goes to show how amazing this forum and its community are. Hopefully, I'll make a final post on this thread eventually when he gets his new accordion. Until then, stay safe everyone

Very interesting story indeed, thank you. I guess another outcome would be for the seller to drop the price relative to the actual condition, and for an exuberant do it yourselfer to render it playable in its current condition, not attempting to achieve vintage setup. Then at least it could make beautiful music. Good luck to your friend with the next one!

 

[JerryPH]

Very interesting story indeed, thank you. I guess another outcome would be for the seller to drop the price relative to the actual condition, and for an exuberant do it yourselfer to render it playable in its current condition, not attempting to achieve vintage setup. Then at least it could make beautiful music. Good luck to your friend with the next one!

You can see that they were already unrealistic, initially wanting 75% the price of a new one for a used "broken" instrument. There are Beltuna Leader V's out there for $6000-ish... roughly 40-45% the value of a new one! For them to lower the price and bring it to market value would mean they would need to sell it for around $2000, and I doubt that would happen.

 

[Fredson96]

yes, to repair and successfully convert it to LMMH you would
install a new set of Beltuna Piccolo reeds in the current M-
position in the out of chamber reedblocks, and a new set of
M reeds for the chamber after removing the current Piccolo reeds

re-using the M- reeds is possible, but a costly re-tuning job to shift
them up to 440

and i would say send the reedblocks back to Beltuna for this, as they
have the tools and setups in their factory to do it well, though of course
a final fine tuning in the instrument would still be needed

that leaves the accordion value itself at a few thousand at most to buy
to make such a large project worth doing, and it could be worth doing
but only because there are not many good accordions available down there.

well i am glad we were able to help you analyze this "deal" and i am also
glad you have discovered the Professionalism and character of the people at Beltuna

Honestly, if it was me, I wouldn't even go that far. I'd just tune the current Beltuna M reeds and get a new set of piccolo ones, but not necessarily from Beltuna. Any out-of-the-shelf Artigiana, Armoniche or Binci set would do the job. After all, the piccolo would appear only in the master and in the musette, and he doesn't need them that much (for me, I like my piccolo to be there, but just as "support" to "fill the sound", weaker than the rest ). And even then, if I REALLY wanted this accordion, I'd AT MOST CONSIDER paying for the piccolo set (not the expensive part, and I'd know the origin 100%). As for the modifications, however, either the seller gets a good professional (i.e., the expensive part) and deals with them with his money, or no deal. In any case, indeed, it was incredible to contact Beltuna. Both them and the people from Excelsior deserve nothing but the most heartfelt praise.

 

[Fredson96]

Very interesting story indeed, thank you. I guess another outcome would be for the seller to drop the price relative to the actual condition, and for an exuberant do it yourselfer to render it playable in its current condition, not attempting to achieve vintage setup. Then at least it could make beautiful music. Good luck to your friend with the next one!

That's an option I can't recommend him. Sure, if the seller takes $5800 instead of the current $6800, it'd make it possible to spend $1000 on the adjustments. And thankfully, here in Brazil, we've quite a few insanely good professionals capable of astonishing work. However, we can't be sure that the modifications would be covered with this amount. I imagine that a new set of reed would cost something between $100 and $200 to acquire, not taking shipping into account. This would leave between $800 and $900, also not taking the shipping of the reed blocks themselves into account. Maybe this can pay for a well-done service, maybe not. To get it done, it could be a massive headache and could involve even more money.

 

[Fredson96]

You can see that they were already unrealistic, initially wanting 75% the price of a new one for a used "broken" instrument. There are Beltuna Leader V's out there for $6000-ish... roughly 40-45% the value of a new one! For them to lower the price and bring it to market value would mean they would need to sell it for around $2000, and I doubt that would happen.

To be fair, saying that the instrument is quite cruel. Sure, it was a victim of some piss-poor job, and it currently is a shadow of its former self. But Beltuna themselves believe that it can be salvaged if worked on properly. After all, it's a Beltuna from the 90s: both its materials and quality are of the highest level. Given the current scenario, I'd say that, if he could work things out with the seller and do things right, it could even be well-worth it to pursue this instrument. However, under the speculations I mentioned in a previous reply. He shouldn't sink his money and effort to do this on his own.

Unfortunately, there aren't Beltunas in Brazil. I've seen a grand total of 2 in the national market since 2012. A Prestige that was sold back in 2011 and this one. People here usually want either a Scandalli Super VI, a Giulietti Classic 127 or an intermediary Piatanesi Super IV. Most Brazilian players never heard of insanely good brands like Victoria, Beltuna or Pigini. A typical Brazilian player will get a Classic 127 over a Spirit V or a Petosa AM-1100 in a heartbeat: that's how the market is around here.

 

[Tom]

I’d go for the Piatanesi.

 

[JerryPH]

To be fair, saying that the instrument is quite cruel. Sure, it was a victim of some piss-poor job, and it currently is a shadow of its former self. But Beltuna themselves believe that it can be salvaged if worked on properly. After all, it's a Beltuna from the 90s: both its materials and quality are of the highest level.

No, that is being realistic!

A new Leader V costs



Thats $15,500 US dollars.. ROUGHLY.

You can get ones in EXCELLENT condition for $6000!


That *IS* it's true market value, and this is for a Leader V with MIDI... a Leader IV is about $1500 less overall in terms of market value, so around $4500. Anything higher and you are overpaying. Now, remove the costs for Beltuna to make it right professionally from that $4500 value,
and you will see that I may have been off a little... but definitely not enough to be cruel and certainly nowhere near 75% of the value of a new instrument.

Yes this is a high end instrument, it did not deserve to get butchered in the first place and it deserves to be professionally fixed for it to be a viable instrument again... unfortunately, market values are market values, but the time that a professional charges for his quality work won't change (and should not!). Original parts or high quality parts are also never cheap.

The fact is that this is a very sad situation that unless you find someone that wants to place MORE money in to that instrument than it is worth for sentimental reasons, that may be OK... but if they are looking to purchase a Leader IV, there are better and CHEAPER places to get them at... it takes time and patience, but they are out there.

 

[saundersbp]

Yes this is a high end instrument

Mon dieu!
Having heard the sounds it makes I think I'd opt for this instead:

 

[Fredson96]

No, that is being realistic!

A new Leader V costs



Thats $15,500 US dollars.. ROUGHLY.

You can get ones in EXCELLENT condition for $6000!


That *IS* it's true market value, and this is for a Leader V with MIDI... a Leader IV is about $1500 less overall in terms of market value, so around $4500. Anything higher and you are overpaying. Now, remove the costs for Beltuna to make it right professionally from that $4500 value,
and you will see that I may have been off a little... but definitely not enough to be cruel and certainly nowhere near 75% of the value of a new instrument.

Yes this is a high end instrument, it did not deserve to get butchered in the first place and it deserves to be professionally fixed for it to be a viable instrument again... unfortunately, market values are market values, but the time that a professional charges for his quality work won't change (and should not!). Original parts or high quality parts are also never cheap.

The fact is that this is a very sad situation that unless you find someone that wants to place MORE money in to that instrument than it is worth for sentimental reasons, that may be OK... but if they are looking to purchase a Leader IV, there are better and CHEAPER places to get them at... it takes time and patience, but they are out there.

Whenever we speak importing, add the 60% tax + 5% transactional fee + 5% Paypal fee. The $15,500 arrives here at $26,350 and the $6,000, at $10,200. Unfortunately, even bringing second hand instruments from abroad is insanelly hard, as you can see. Right now, it's completely off the table. It's cheaper to pay $400/$500 (given the current USD to BRL ratio, this is quite a substantial amount here in Brazil at the moment, so it may end up being around there actually) for a professional to place a new set of quality piccolo reeds and make the modifications properly. Sure, it's not ideal, but there's no other way to get a Beltuna right now. In any case, I haven't heard from him yet, so he either gave up or is still discussing solutions with the guys. If anything new appear, I'll let you guys know. On highsight, this whole saga was quite interesting. Another accordion search tale for the books.

 

[Fredson96]

I've got some "updates", folks (if they can even be called that). Apparently, my friend's still in talk with the seller, for he asked my opinion on the following topic (attached photos will be referenced from now on, I made them to think more clearly on the matter). We all know how registers work. If the accordion's mechanics aren't altered: if the position of the reed blocks changes, the combinations created by the registers (i.e., bandoneon, organ, harmonium) will change as well (e.g., what once was a violin can now be an organ). That's the main "axis of attack" in discussion now.

The current configuration of the reed blocks of this Leader IV (image "Current.png") is the chaos we all came to know: bassoon and piccolo inside the chamber, flute and clarinet outside (their exact position is unknown). For convenience, let's refer to the dots marked on the register as "down', "left", "middle" and "right" dots (LMMM) based on their position. The name printed over the registers match their sound, so it's safe to assume the following:

1) The register with the "middle" dot (i.e., the Piccolo in "Current.png") is the one inside the chamber which once corresponded to a M reed block (most likely the Clarinet) before being altered;
2) The register with the "down" dot (i.e., the Bassoon in "Current.png") is the one inside the chamber which correspondeds to the L reed block;
3) The registers with the "left" and "right" dots correspond to the two M reed blocks (i.e., Clarinet and Flute) out of the chamber (their specific position is unknown, hence the (?) marks in "Current.png").

If that's indeed the case, in principle, without modifying the mechanism of the registers, simply by permutating the reeds between the reed blocks, the configurations displayed in "Configuration1.png" and "Configuration2.png" could be achieved. By placing both Clarinet and Bassoon inside the chamber, the position of the reed blocks outside the chamber will determine what registers will be present in the end. Obviously, the registers in "Configuration2.png" are the more diverse and desirable ones. Sure, the Harmonium and Oboe will both have a M out of chamber (i.e., they'll probably sound higher and overall weaker than usual), and both the Organ and Piccolo registers will be lost. However, he himself doesn't think these are pertinent problems and, in the end, he'll have the registers he actually desires.

To find the correct spots to place both Flute and Piccolo outside the chamber in order to get "Configuration2.png", I told him to do the following:

1) Remove the reed blocks so that he can see the holes and press the Master register;
2) Press the "left-middle-down" register (Accordion in "Configuration2.png") and see which holes will be blocked. The holes that remain opened will indicate the place where the Flute reed block should go and those that close, where the Piccolo reed block should go;
3) To double check, press the "left-middle" register (Violin in "Configuration2.png"). No changes should be observed outside the chamber: the holes that were opened should remain opened and vice-versa.

In the end, turns out that, if they can get a good professional to make the necessary modifications, this can become a fine (although not perfect) LMMH model. In any case, I'll let you guys know if this goes forward.

 

[Rufad]

Whenever we speak importing, add the 60% tax + 5% transactional fee + 5% Paypal fee. The $15,500 arrives here at $26,350 and the $6,000, at $10,200. Unfortunately, even bringing second hand instruments from abroad is insanelly hard, as you can see. Right now, it's completely off the table. It's cheaper to pay $400/$500 (given the current USD to BRL ratio, this is quite a substantial amount here in Brazil at the moment, so it may end up being around there actually) for a professional to place a new set of quality piccolo reeds and make the modifications properly. Sure, it's not ideal, but there's no other way to get a Beltuna right now. In any case, I haven't heard from him yet, so he either gave up or is still discussing solutions with the guys. If anything new appear, I'll let you guys know. On highsight, this whole saga was quite interesting. Another accordion search tale for the books.

I did some research on the net, and based on www.thebrazilbusiness.com the 60% tax would be more like 40%. That is still a lot, but obviously not as much as 60%.

"II - Import Tax, or Imposto sobre a Importação" of 18%
"Cofins - Contribution for Social Security Financing, or Contribuição Social para o Financiamento da Seguridade Social" of 7.6%
"PIS - Social Integration Program, or Programa de Integração Social" of 1.65%
"ICMS - Tax on the Circulation of Goods and Services, or Imposto sobre Circulação de Mercadorias e Serviços" of 16% - 18%

"ICMS is a state tax, so its rate varies according to the state where the operation is taking place, but it is usually between 16% and 18%. In some states, the rate applied to transactions involving the circulation of musical instruments can be lowered, as such goods are capable of generating cultural incentives. In São Paulo, for example, the applied rate is 12%."

60% import tax only applies (1) to goods valued at $3,000 or less and (2) if the importing business chooses to report the transaction using a simplified method ("Importation via DSI (Declaração Simplificada de Importação, or Simplified Import Declaration)). Both conditions must be met.

If value exceeds $3,000, the importing business must report the transaction using regular procedure (Importation via DI (Declaração de Importação, or Import Declaration)).

Also, some manufacturers are willing to issue an invoice for a lower amount, so you pay lower import tax.

 

[Fredson96]

I did some research on the net, and based on www.thebrazilbusiness.com the 60% tax would be more like 40%. That is still a lot, but obviously not as much as 60%.

"II - Import Tax, or Imposto sobre a Importação" of 18%
"Cofins - Contribution for Social Security Financing, or Contribuição Social para o Financiamento da Seguridade Social" of 7.6%
"PIS - Social Integration Program, or Programa de Integração Social" of 1.65%
"ICMS - Tax on the Circulation of Goods and Services, or Imposto sobre Circulação de Mercadorias e Serviços" of 16% - 18%

"ICMS is a state tax, so its rate varies according to the state where the operation is taking place, but it is usually between 16% and 18%. In some states, the rate applied to transactions involving the circulation of musical instruments can be lowered, as such goods are capable of generating cultural incentives. In São Paulo, for example, the applied rate is 12%."

60% import tax only applies (1) to goods valued at $3,000 or less and (2) if the importing business chooses to report the transaction using a simplified method ("Importation via DSI (Declaração Simplificada de Importação, or Simplified Import Declaration)). Both conditions must be met.

If value exceeds $3,000, the importing business must report the transaction using regular procedure (Importation via DI (Declaração de Importação, or Import Declaration)).

Also, some manufacturers are willing to issue an invoice for a lower amount, so you pay lower import tax.

Sorry for the delay to reply, stuff here has been wild, low level PC problems are hell on earth and I want to cry ;-;

I double checked and, currently, here's the drill for people under a CPF ("Cadastro de Pessoa Física", for "real people, not businesses"). They recently updated the rules because, before, it was quite a mess. Any import under $50 to a physical person (i.e., someone under a CPF) is free of tax. On the other hand, any import above $50 to a physical person will be subjected to 60% tax over the total value (i.e., goods + shipment).

Entenda em 7 pontos o que muda nas compras de até US$ 50 a partir de hoje

As compras internacionais de até US$ 50 feitas online não vão mais ter a cobrança de imposto de importação a partir desta terça-feira (1º). A regra vale para as empresas que aderirem ao programa Remessa Conforme, criado pelo governo federal. Entenda em

economia.uol.com.br

Indeed, it is possible to arrange with sellers to declare a lower value in the invoice. It's also possible to explore the modular nature of the accordion: its parts can be separated, declared as "spare/reposition", shipped individually and, once in Brazil, reassembled together. His main worry is that this would be classifed as tax evasion, which is a crime, and there could be hefty consequences. Due to this risk, he prefers to do things by the book. In any case, apparently he was looking to get a new Piatanesi Super 4S from another seller, so it seems the story is comming to a close.