Opinions on Beltuna Leader IV

[Ventura]

the tuning of a LMMM accordion is more critical than of a LMMH
because the relative depth of the Meusette effect can be quite
wide, from gentle and sweet to extreme, depending on the tuning scheme

That is not bad or good, but it can be limiting. What i mean is the music your friend
likes and will choose to specialize in is must be supported by the specific tuning of
this MMM and if the tuning is not suited to his music, it will fight him.

 

[Fredson96]

the tuning of a LMMM accordion is more critical than of a LMMH
because the relative depth of the Meusette effect can be quite
wide, from gentle and sweet to extreme, depending on the tuning scheme

That is not bad or good, but it can be limiting. What i mean is the music your friend
likes and will choose to specialize in is must be supported by the specific tuning of
this MMM and if the tuning is not suited to his music, it will fight him.

Indeed. Here in Brazil, it's undesirable because, in almost all regions, LMH instruments were pretty much always the standard throughout the years, and people mostly love to play their favorite songs in instruments close to those used in the original records, for that fuzzy familiarity feeling. On top of that, French valses (where the Musette is at it's best, IMHO) aren't popular here, and Brazilian valses are typically played with other registers, like M and MH. This creates a huge issue: whenever you try to sell a LMMM instrument, the demand is almost nonexistent and, by consequence, the price drops tremendously (buyers will always push down the price solely based on that). It's just the way things go here :/

If he ever desires to sell the Beltuna and get another one, if it's a LMMM, then he'll have a lot of headaches and will most likely take a loss. Keeping to the LMMH models makes life easier here, so I cannot recommend this model to him

 

[debra]

Please zoom in on picture #3. There is no dot for piccolo on any of the switches.

I could not see that much detail in the picture of the registers. But looking at the picture Beltuna04.png it's indeed clear that the reed plates on both sides of the non-cassotto blocks have the same size so those are two M reeds. Having an H reed in cassotto is also not something I would expect from Beltuna (though other brands often did this, for instance Piermaria). So indeed this must be an LMMM instrument. That used to be very desirable in some countries in the past but is less desirable nowadays pretty much everywhere.

 

[Fredson96]

I could not see that much detail in the picture of the registers. But looking at the picture Beltuna04.png it's indeed clear that the reed plates on both sides of the non-cassotto blocks have the same size so those are two M reeds. Having an H reed in cassotto is also not something I would expect from Beltuna (though other brands often did this, for instance Piermaria). So indeed this must be an LMMM instrument. That used to be very desirable in some countries in the past but is less desirable nowadays pretty much everywhere.

Unfortunately, it's not desirable here either ;-;

In any case, we've got news! The seller got back to my friend and now we're quite puzzled, to put it mildly. He sent us the photo of the registers' names (attached) and, although the dot marks on them are indeed those typical of a LMMM model, the name of the register with the middle dot mark is "piccolo". Also, we heard attentive to the video showing the accordion's sound again and, indeed, we can posit that it's a piccolo (either that, or it's the highest M castle ever made: the notes are VERY piccolo-like high).

We've thought of some possible explanations for this. For instance, this simply may be due to a factory mistake (i.e., they used LMMM registers in a LMMH model by accident). It's a complex instrument, so errors like this are bound to happen (and, as previous posts in this threat show, this kind of mistake is quite easy to go unnoticed). If that's the case, we sincerely doubt that, even if the original buyer noticed this mistake, he'd go through the hassle of going through all the steps to have it fixed. Personally, I never saw anything like this but, based on other stories I've heard, I wouldn't be surprised in the slighest if something like the aforementioned scenarios happened.

Another possible explanation is that the buyer may have acquired a LMMM model and requested it to be modified to a LMMH, and Beltuna forgot to change the reeds' marks (or simply couldn't be arsed to do so). If that's the case, we're fairly certain that it was a job made by Beltuna itself. As shown in the remaining images, the reed blocks are too uniform and similar (wood work looks exactly the same) for them to have been made by anyone else. They most likely were made at the same period, with the same materials.

The last explanation we came to is the one you suggested: the H castle may be in the chamber, and Beltuna marked the reeds differently due to this exotic configuration. We requested photos os the block reeds alone, to make sure. This will make things a lot more clear.

In any case, what do you guys think? He's still very interested in the instrument (it's amazing and sounds great, after all), but it's too damn expensive for him to bee too trigger-happy with his decision. IMHO, I believe it to be worth it (albeit I'm too naive on the subject to make an objective recommendation). However, given the elephant in the room, every additional consideration/perspective/opinion is of great value

 

[Rufad]

Unfortunately, it's not desirable here either ;-;

In any case, we've got news! The seller got back to my friend and now we're quite puzzled, to put it mildly. He sent us the photo of the registers' names (attached) and, although the dot marks on them are indeed those typical of a LMMM model, the name of the register with the middle dot mark is "piccolo". Also, we heard attentive to the video showing the accordion's sound again and, indeed, we can posit that it's a piccolo (either that, or it's the highest M castle ever made: the notes are VERY piccolo-like high).

We've thought of some possible explanations for this. For instance, this simply may be due to a factory mistake (i.e., they used LMMM registers in a LMMH model by accident). It's a complex instrument, so errors like this are bound to happen (and, as previous posts in this threat show, this kind of mistake is quite easy to go unnoticed). If that's the case, we sincerely doubt that, even if the original buyer noticed this mistake, he'd go through the hassle of going through all the steps to have it fixed. Personally, I never saw anything like this but, based on other stories I've heard, I wouldn't be surprised in the slighest if something like the aforementioned scenarios happened.

Another possible explanation is that the buyer may have acquired a LMMM model and requested it to be modified to a LMMH, and Beltuna forgot to change the reeds' marks (or simply couldn't be arsed to do so). If that's the case, we're fairly certain that it was a job made by Beltuna itself. As shown in the remaining images, the reed blocks are too uniform and similar (wood work looks exactly the same) for them to have been made by anyone else. They most likely were made at the same period, with the same materials.

The last explanation we came to is the one you suggested: the H castle may be in the chamber, and Beltuna marked the reeds differently due to this exotic configuration. We requested photos os the block reeds alone, to make sure. This will make things a lot more clear.

In any case, what do you guys think? He's still very interested in the instrument (it's amazing and sounds great, after all), but it's too damn expensive for him to bee too trigger-happy with his decision. IMHO, I believe it to be worth it (albeit I'm too naive on the subject to make an objective recommendation). However, given the elephant in the room, every additional consideration/perspective/opinion is of great value

I would walk away from this accordion. Too much money is at stake, and things just don't make sense. I have never seen an accordion where switches did not match the actual configuration. That would be a huge error in my opinion. I have purchased three different accordions where I asked for some custom switches in not-usual configuration and not-usual order, and each manufacturer got it right. If the seller modified things himself, that would be just as scary to me. Just my opinion.

 

[Rufad]

Also, I would love to hear people's opinions (especially people who do repairs and tuning) on the reed tongues in the last picture. Filing on some of the tongues seems too crude, for lack of a better word.

 

[pitzelberger]

I would trust more the dots on the register buttons than the names on the grille. The grille is easily swapped between different Leader models. Also during the manufacturing process, the accordion and the grille might be only assembled in the end, so someone might have overlooked that the names do not match the configuration of the accordion.

 

[JerryPH]

This is simple to resolve... hit the highest register and hear what reed bank sounds like... if it chirps like a bird, no matter what the registrations show, its an LMMH. If its not, it is as the registration shows.

The kicker, if there *is* a true piccolo reed set in there, the big question is... how did it get there?
- improper register identification?
- factory install of piccolo reeds by mistake or special order?
- user addition AFTER purchase? << If this, are they using the same quality reeds?

 

[Ventura]

as Paul noted:
"reed plates on both sides of the non-cassotto blocks have the same size so those are two M reeds"
which means if there is a Piccolo, it must be in the chamber

which means that if it WAS a special order with extra reedblocks so that
the original owner could switch them out on occasion, where are they ?

and if the accordion has been modified from the original, then understand also
that BOTH chambered reedblocks haad to be altered to achieve this, which
brings into play the Bassoon (L) reedset as possibly having been messed with,
harmed in some way, or even replaced as well.

so the reeds in the chamber, whatever they are now, must absolutely be inspected
before any money changes hands.. period..

dear Fredson, i can understand that opportunity is not as easily found
for high quality accordions in South America as it is in the North and Europe,
so i cannot fully understand your situation. On top of that, i do know
there are larger issues in many areas of SA with anything Wooden and Felted
being ruined by insect infestation, and that many things like Accordions can
look wonderful but be honeycombed under the surface.

Is it that difficult to order directly from Italy for the nice quality available brands
that are sold direct from the manufacturer ?

and alternatively, have you and your friend considered a Vacation
somewhere with a nice accordion selection like New York or Washington DC
or Philadelphia or Europe ?

 

[Fredson96]

I would walk away from this accordion. Too much money is at stake, and things just don't make sense. I have never seen an accordion where switches did not match the actual configuration. That would be a huge error in my opinion. I have purchased three different accordions where I asked for some custom switches in not-usual configuration and not-usual order, and each manufacturer got it right. If the seller modified things himself, that would be just as scary to me. Just my opinion.

I agree 100%. On one hand, the seller we're dealing with is quite reputable in the Brazilian market, so the chances of him altering the intrument themselves are very close to zero. They, at most, clean and polish the instruments before puting them for sale. Not only that, but they clearly value "well conserved, untouched instruments, exactly as they were upon their production". If they did any modifications, I'm positive they'd inform it. Otherwise, their credibility would take a hit (and, given how expensive accordions are, credibility is seminal in order to exist in the market)

On the other hand, since it's an instrument from the 90s, what the first owner did to it is anybody's guess. Maybe Beltuna did commit a mistake (as unlikely as it may be, for it'd be a big one at that). Maybe the reeds' marks were made by mistake or special order (more likely, albeit unusual, to put it mildly). Maybe the original buyer bought a LMMM model with a additional H reed block to change as he pleased (quite far fetched, but I've heard of similar cases). If the latter is the case, then most likely the third M castle was lost to time. In any case, we requested quality photos of the reed blocks. We believe that inspecting them individually with calm will give us all the answers we need. As soon as we've news on this front, we'll share them here )>'-')>

 

[Fredson96]

I would trust more the dots on the register buttons than the names on the grille. The grille is easily swapped between different Leader models. Also during the manufacturing process, the accordion and the grille might be only assembled in the end, so someone might have overlooked that the names do not match the configuration of the accordion

I thought on this possibility, but mostly discarded it already. The piccolo register sounds 100% like a piccolo, there's no shot it's a middle reed block (unless it's the highest sounding middle reed block ever produced). I'm not positive how Beltuna models registers were marked back them, but to put the wrong grill on an accordion, and for the wrong names to still match the expected sound of the registers, it's just too far fetched to consider. At the end of the day, I reckon only good quality images of the individual reed blocks and of them side by side (to check the materials' consistency and confirm were made by Beltuna) will give us the full picure

 

[Fredson96]

This is simple to resolve... hit the highest register and hear what reed bank sounds like... if it chirps like a bird, no matter what the registrations show, its an LMMH. If its not, it is as the registration shows.

The kicker, if there *is* a true piccolo reed set in there, the big question is... how did it get there?
- improper register identification?
- factory install of piccolo reeds by mistake or special order?
- user addition AFTER purchase? << If this, are they using the same quality reeds?

By hearing it, we can posit that the block reed marked by the register denoted by piccolo is indeed the H one, without a shadow of a doubt. Even the organ, harmonion and oboe registers sound exactly as they would in a LMMH accordion. We're dealing with a LMMH model for sure. We just can't tell if the H castle is the one in the chamber or not, as we'd need to see the castles individually and have them show us which one goes where to be certain. However, we can assure you guys that yes: the H reed block is there, and it matches exactly the register with the middle mark named picollo.

Indeed, those are the gold questions. However, given it's a 30 year-old instrument (imported from the US, we were told), we can just make educated guesses based on the information and images provided. As soon as we see the reed blocks, we may be able to better pinpoint what may have happened. Until then, however, there's not much we can do :/

I'll make sure to post the pictures here as soon as we get them, though. At the very least, I believe we can have some fun discussing what in the world happened here lol

 

[JerryPH]

Silly question, since you brought it up and can be a big pointer... in the ORGAN registration, are we hearing the PICCOLO reeds or the clarinet reed? In no accordion that I have heard to date does the piccolo reed sound on the ORGAN registration.

If your does, it was likely originally a LMMM and someone swapped out one of the M reeds for the PICCOLO reeds. They may fool the people but it's really hard to fool the people that made the accordion because the mechanism for the registers may (or may not) have been originally designed to run with a LMMM setup.

 

[Fredson96]

as Paul noted:
"reed plates on both sides of the non-cassotto blocks have the same size so those are two M reeds"
which means if there is a Piccolo, it must be in the chamber

which means that if it WAS a special order with extra reedblocks so that
the original owner could switch them out on occasion, where are they ?

and if the accordion has been modified from the original, then understand also
that BOTH chambered reedblocks haad to be altered to achieve this, which
brings into play the Bassoon (L) reedset as possibly having been messed with,
harmed in some way, or even replaced as well.

so the reeds in the chamber, whatever they are now, must absolutely be inspected
before any money changes hands.. period..

dear Fredson, i can understand that opportunity is not as easily found
for high quality accordions in South America as it is in the North and Europe,
so i cannot fully understand your situation. On top of that, i do know
there are larger issues in many areas of SA with anything Wooden and Felted
being ruined by insect infestation, and that many things like Accordions can
look wonderful but be honeycombed under the surface.

Is it that difficult to order directly from Italy for the nice quality available brands
that are sold direct from the manufacturer ?

and alternatively, have you and your friend considered a Vacation
somewhere with a nice accordion selection like New York or Washington DC
or Philadelphia or Europe ?

Our thoughts exactly. We're sure it is a LMMH and, based on the images, we believe that the H castle is in the chamber. We'll try to confirm this asap

As for the extra reed blocks question. If it indeed was a special order and they were requested, they were probably lost to time. It's a 30+ years-old instrument imported from the US: precise information regarding its purchase is all but impossible to have. Maybe the owner passed away and his son sold the instrument, not knowing that the extra cute wood block with funny metal thingies next to it was an additional reed block? I've seen situations like this regarding people selling old models knowing nothing about them, so it wouldn't be a susprise. Still, it's all but impossible to pinpoint exactly the instrument's history

Indeed, I cannot stress how absolutely unique the oportunity to acquire a Beltuna here is (hence why my friend still hopes that this is a good quality Beltuna that was just a victim of minor production mistakes). We can assure that the model has no problem related to bugs. Not only the seller is quite reputable, but the photos also show that this isn't the case (I've seen accordions corroded by termites before, it's as easy to see as it's sad)

Regarding the purchase question. At the moment, it's impossible to order anything directly from Europe. Just so that you guys can feel his drama yourselves, consider the following information. The current Brazilian minimum wage is R$1,320.00. The commercial Euro + transaction fees is R$5,628 as of today. Let's say a new Leader IV today is 13,000.00€ (I reckon it's somewhat close to that, for what I saw). The instrument ends up costing R$73,168.00. To import an instrument, we must pay 60% in taxes on the instrument's value + its shipping cost. This bumps the new Leader IV value to R$117,069.00 (roughly 89 Brazilian minimum wages), or 20,801.00€. Traveling abroad also doesn't help much. Sure, quality second hand accordions can be found, but the costs involving acquiring the passport, travel costs, travel exchange rates, and the 60% tax (yes, you still pay them if you bring stuff from a trip abroad) make it VERY hard to bring a accordion. This used Leader IV, albeit not cheap, is more than 3x cheaper than a new one brought from Italy. If the exchange rates weren't so bad for the Brazilian Real nowadays, importing would be a possibility, but it's just not the case, and we don't know if/when it'll ever be :/

Cheaper models from reputable brands are still insanelly expensive here, so used models from these same brands are the way to go. The main problem is to check the quality of older instruments. Information is usually lost to time, and inspecting stuff by photos/videos is very tricky. We know that the seller is good, we can assure this. However, as good as they are, this Leader IV is confusing to say the least. I truly hope that the reed blocks' photos will help us to finally make a veredict regarding it.

 

[Fredson96]

Silly question, since you brought it up and can be a big pointer... in the ORGAN registration, are we hearing the PICCOLO reeds or the clarinet reed? In no accordion that I have heard to date does the piccolo reed sound on the ORGAN registration.

If your does, it was likely originally a LMMM and someone swapped out one of the M reeds for the PICCOLO reeds. They may fool the people but it's really hard to fool the people that made the accordion because the mechanism for the registers may (or may not) have been originally designed to run with a LMMM setup.

Let's consider a double tone chamber LMMH model with L and M on the chambers. At least in Brazil, LM register (both in chamber) usually is the Bandoneon. The LH register is usually refered to as organ, the LMH as Harmonion and the MH (M in chamber), as oboe. Sure, it can change from brand to brand, but on avarage you'll find this notation to be the most common one. In any case, I do agree with you that, most likely, this accordion was originally a LMMM model that was modified to become a LMMH model. I do, however, believe that such modification was requested directly to Beltuna because of the grill: the reeds' names marked in it match exactly their expected sound.

P.S.: for comparison, I've attached a photo of the names of a new Giulietti Classic 127 registers. Clarinet in chamber, flute out of chamber. This is the standard names we seen in accordions around here, specially in models produced since the 90s.

 

[Rufad]

Why not contact Beltuna directly and ask if they have any information on the accordion based on the serial number?

 

[Fredson96]

Why not contact Beltuna directly and ask if they have any information on the accordion based on the serial number?

That's the main ideia. However, doing so before having the reed blocks' pictures would be pointless. If the block reed were indeed modified, they won't be able to tell unless they actually see them. Plus, the Internet wasn't huge in the 90s, so all the info regarding this instrument may be lost. For instance, Excelsior lost all the written information on the Mod. 2000 to time. Nothing was ever uploaded to the net because it wasn't a regular thing back then. My luck strike was that some older workers remembered the specifics, and they were able to remember some details by looking at the photos I sent them. We hope that this may be the case with Beltuna, but we want to do things right and send them as much info and photos as we can.

Nevertheless, the seller got back to him with the castles' pics and some new info. The H castle is not in the chamber: the M one corresponding to the clarinet is. Indeed, everything points to the fact that a M castle was modified to become a H one (the wax job looks a quite off, but we'd like to hear from people that repairs and tuning their professional opinion on it). We'll contact Beltuna right away, to see if they can help somehow. In any case, we believe this are the final steps of this journey )>'-')>

 

[JerryPH]

A modified accordion with lower quality messy waxing is definitely not going to be worth 75% of the price of a new one. At that point, you may as well buy a new one and get a warranty and be sure it is also done right!

 

[Ventura]

in the latest photos, beltunareeds1-jpeg.9903 and beltunareeds2-jpeg.9904 are both
M reedsets, opposite sides of the same reedblock, and they absolutely correspond
with the beltuna03-png.9798 and beltuna04-png.9799 from your original upload of
photo's, and which are referenced in the debra post, and which are absolutely
positively the out of chamber mounting location.

therefore

"....Nevertheless, the seller ......... new info. The H castle is not in the chamber: the M one
corresponding to the clarinet is. Indeed, " FALSE

not true at all

the high reed cannot possibly be anywhere else but in the chamber, on the opposite side
of the same reedblock as the L bassoon reedset, period.

the white strip of stuff clearly runs the length of the reedblock and was intended
to bridge the gap between the shorter P reedplates and the original M reedplates,
it is quite obvious on the sharps side, but you can see it in spots on the naturals
side as well. OBVIOUSLY A MODIFICATION and not the work of Beltuna

the white stuff does not look to be a material well suited to WAX and WOOD,
and so i judge this to be an ongoing problem which will need to be removed
and replaced before reedwax begins to fall off and cause other problems..
indeed in beltunareeds7-jpeg.9909 you can clearly see several fissures which are
lifting and possily leaking air and need re-sealed immediately

so the usefulness of Piccolo reeds in chamber can be argued as opinion,
but there is no argument that these piccolo reeds are not the original reeds,
and that they do not/cannot match the original reeds for Quality and Value
UNLESS THEY WERE PROVIDED BY BELTUNA directly to the technician that
performed this modification (unlikely)

this accordion is hopelessly compromised in my opinion, you couldn't
give it to me, it is useless to me or anyone who uses their chambered M reed
often as a solo voice

sorry.. the pictures tell the story and it is a sad story

the other problem is that the M reedset that was removed and replaced
was the "a:440" while the two M reedsets opposite each other were the
M- and M+ .. that means this accordion has no hope to sound like a
normal/typical LMMH because of the original meusette tuning spread

basically, this beltuna has been ruined for anyone except the earlier owner
who obviously had these changes made to suit his personal preference.
it probably should have been buried with him

 

[Fredson96]

A modified accordion with lower quality messy waxing is definitely not going to be worth 75% of the price of a new one. At that point, you may as well buy a new one and get a warranty and be sure it is also done right!

100% agreed. That's what I told him.