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Opinions on replacing bellows pins with wood screws or nails ?
- Thread starter isorry123
- Start date
Very true- and haphazard repairs on house wiring or on beautifully crafted masterworks are really hazardous- as in burning the house down or potentially electrocuting the next guy who works on it- or vandalous or both.
The basic decades old accordion- had for a couple of hundred bucks and worth pretty close to the same after several hundred dollars worth of repairs from a genuine, skilled, knowlegeable tech (not at all denigrating the skills involved nor disputing the value of the time required to employ those skills)- is not exactly comparable to rewiring a house or working on a Stradivarius violin.
Perhaps making it sound good enough for the owner's purposes with repairs which may well place it- or just as likely simply leave it- beyond the pale of the happy hobbyist / serious player frontier really is a desirable effect of chatboards.
Applied to a Super Six or a Gola it'd be a really reprehensible fiasco, but done on a two reed Luigi Borgia Supreme picked up at a garage sale for fifty bucks ... not so much.
As with most things there's a sliding scale and where any individual case fits depends on the instrument, the owner, and the expectations.
(As an aside- there are many mass market LM/MM accordions out there which, properly spruced up (mechanically as in valves/reeds/keys and pallets set right vice rhinestones polished) can really sing in the right hands. Assaulting them with needle nosed pliers, a big screwdriver, and globs of PVA glue can- again, make them functional and enjoyable for many- but they'll sing in the sense of the drunk on the lamp post, "Show Me the Way to go Home..." vice sounding to their potential. Reaching that full potential usually does require doing things "the correct way" with "the correct materials".)
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Vladimir M.
Active member
So please to the problem described by the starter of this thread: What are the correct ways and materials?
The OP asked about replacing pins with screws. The instrument is designed for pins.
Restoring holes via water or coatings suggested; both stopgaps as I see it but not particularly risky and the base problem was more irksome than serious. This was not a sonic issue in any case.
Either oversized pins with properly rebored holes if the holes are way too wallowed out or a new gasket if the existing one is too compressed leading to the problem. The reboring requires a drill press to do right.
OP replaced gasket and it seemed to address the problem.
Restoring holes via water or coatings suggested; both stopgaps as I see it but not particularly risky and the base problem was more irksome than serious. This was not a sonic issue in any case.
Either oversized pins with properly rebored holes if the holes are way too wallowed out or a new gasket if the existing one is too compressed leading to the problem. The reboring requires a drill press to do right.
OP replaced gasket and it seemed to address the problem.
isorry123
Member
I think for one, it’s hard to source the correct repair parts. Not counting the suppliers (CGM, Deffner) who are quitting or unreliable. You can go to Carini - but there you are battling a manual order system, countless parts that are poorly translated, five week shipping. I’ve had some better luck with Busso on eBay as well as parts from Liberty, though the markups are considerable.
Especially something as simple as bellows pins - easier for the one-time repairman to just shove a screw in it. Myself I ordered twenty pins but that’s because I have many repairs to do.
I just waxed pallet heads onto key rods - the correct way. Previously I had tried hot glue and fabritac too, those were no good. But for someone just fixing one of their grandpas old keys? The hot glue makes sense in this context; rather than firing up a wax pot or modifying a solder iron or whatever.
I’ve spent time fixing bad repairs, the dental floss bass piston repairs come to mind. I think there’s a time and place for accordion first aid - but as time goes on, I’m building up my stockpile of proper repair tools and materials.
Cost is prohibitive too. Wax spoon ? $35. Wax pot? $30. Four pounds of beeswax and one pound of rosin is $45, or $9/ounce on liberty. Scratchers from house of music tradition - $20 each, a proper lifter $25. Diamond files from Italy $$$, diamond headed files from harbor freight $10. Bellows pins $1-2 each; screws and washers $5 for a box. Italian bellows gasket $35, comparable A/C gasket $5 - is it proper ? Pearl key tops $100/set. Combination felt/suede for pallets $1/squate inch, or glue your own felt and chamois for a fraction of that. For an accordion that will take up 72-96 hours of work for a full job.
Which short cuts are people willing to take
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isorry123
Member
How many genuine, skilled knowledgeable techs are out there? I don’t think anyone short of professional musicians would shell out $100+ per hour that these guys are charging.
I think it’s unfortunate that a lot of accordions are just going to get tossed into the garbage heap because of a lack of support for DIY techniques and materials.
There is definitely a case to be made for doing things “the wrong way” if it can get the instrument playing again imo. Is it better to seal off a missing reed or toss the whole thing in a garbage dump because you can’t get a track down a replacement reed that fits
If we can get more people playing without this barrier of “oh but it’ll cost $800 to get it fixed properly, so just save up $4000 for a new bulgari or whatever”. I’d rather take someone and say “yeah it’s broken because of X, if you do Y you can fix it today, if you do Z you can fix it BETTER”
KiwiSqueezer
Active member
I am 100% in agreement with Ventura - but more important than my opinion is that he's 200% right. No argument. I have been disappointed in my recent journey into the world of accordion repair by the lack of authoritative information available to amateur repairers. I have asked what seem to me to be pretty basic questions on this forum, most of which have received little or no response. Professional repairers, being an endangered species, seem reluctant to let their knowledge reach 'outsiders'. Is this the explanation, or is it that people just don't know? This information void, and economics, encourages bodges, which may be well-intentioned, but are the wrong approach and, whilst perhaps getting a broken box running again, cause damage and make subsequent restoration more difficult and expensive.
In my alter ego as precision engineer, I know there are right and wrong ways to do things. The results can be measured. Sometimes the traditional ways are held on to by old hands, when more modern materials and tools allow better ways. Or, perhaps the 'better ways' are illusory: adhesives are an example (and not a subject for this thread). Modern adhesives can be horrible traps for the unwary. PVA is not the answer to everything!
I despair at some of the advice broadcast on practical engineering fora. Bodgers are everywhere! The flood of information available on the 'net allows anyone to promulgate their half-baked ideas, and it gets harder to separate sense from nonsense, unless you have a good knowledge base already. But if the correct way is kept secret by the few remaining artisans, the bodgers' ways will be the only ways that can be found by the uninitiated.
To get back to the original subject... I guess I'm fortunate because I can easily make bellows pins (in stainless steel). I will have to, because the grooved-head, 2.5 mm diameter pins on old Scandallis seem unobtainium. Repace with woodscrews? If anyone thinks that a poorly-formed (they mostly are) corroded woodscrew doesn't progressively wear its hole(s), each time it's turned, they haven't lived. And, as has been said, the pins are loaded in shear: screws should not be loaded in shear, but in tension. Machine screws into tapped inserts are a different matter, but an unnecessary elaboration.
In my alter ego as precision engineer, I know there are right and wrong ways to do things. The results can be measured. Sometimes the traditional ways are held on to by old hands, when more modern materials and tools allow better ways. Or, perhaps the 'better ways' are illusory: adhesives are an example (and not a subject for this thread). Modern adhesives can be horrible traps for the unwary. PVA is not the answer to everything!
I despair at some of the advice broadcast on practical engineering fora. Bodgers are everywhere! The flood of information available on the 'net allows anyone to promulgate their half-baked ideas, and it gets harder to separate sense from nonsense, unless you have a good knowledge base already. But if the correct way is kept secret by the few remaining artisans, the bodgers' ways will be the only ways that can be found by the uninitiated.
To get back to the original subject... I guess I'm fortunate because I can easily make bellows pins (in stainless steel). I will have to, because the grooved-head, 2.5 mm diameter pins on old Scandallis seem unobtainium. Repace with woodscrews? If anyone thinks that a poorly-formed (they mostly are) corroded woodscrew doesn't progressively wear its hole(s), each time it's turned, they haven't lived. And, as has been said, the pins are loaded in shear: screws should not be loaded in shear, but in tension. Machine screws into tapped inserts are a different matter, but an unnecessary elaboration.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
doing what you NEED to save something that is on life support
so that it can still be useful.. perfectly reasonable..
make a deal with you though.. any "better idea" you get that is
off the wall, wait 5 years so you can actually know it did more good
than harm before you "share" the fix with the unsuspecting reader
so that it can still be useful.. perfectly reasonable..
make a deal with you though.. any "better idea" you get that is
off the wall, wait 5 years so you can actually know it did more good
than harm before you "share" the fix with the unsuspecting reader
May I ask what alloy you prefer when machining stainless steel? I often buy from OnlineMetals and they offer a wide selection of SS alloys - a bit confusing to me. I know what I prefer in other metals such as brass, aluminum, and carbon steel. Maybe 416 for stainless?
I am fortunate to have a small machine shop in the back room of my shop, with a separate area metal cutting, welding and other tools. It is often easier and quicker to make certain parts and jigs rather than try to buy something that might not be quite perfect for the project.
What you wrote about screws in wood is good. Progressive wear is common, and instantly made much worse by those who don’t understand that simply reinserting and turning a screw can cause a lot of damage. For those who don’t know, before tightening a reinserted wood screw, instead of simply pushing and turning, first apply a delicate pressure and turn the screw BACKWARDS, gently feeling for the point where the screw drops into threads formed by the original insertion. The point to feel for is usually a tiny bump. Then try gently tightening. If it immediately “feels” too tight (admittedly based on experience), the screw may be starting to form new threads instead of following the original, damaging the original in the progress. After a few arbitrary insertions the connection integrity may be seriously compromised. (Over-tightening is another big problem)
Your point about the use of wood screws for tension and not shear force is a good one to remember. Things to consider, however, are the type and strength of the wood, the grain orientation, the type and size of fastener, as well as the level of shear force expected.
BTW, in woodturning we sometimes use metal “bolts” to assemble utility things. If the item may need to be removed at times we use threaded metal inserts. And example of this is a SS meat tenderizer with a wooden handle.
JKJ
I don't see why. The pin is blunt against shear, the screw provides a collection of sharp edges to the wood of bellows frame and body. Playing is exercising that connection in shear in alternating directions. There is no load other than shear.
Pins win over screws here in any scenario. By how much may differ in various circumstances, but why bother?
KiwiSqueezer
Active member
JKJ... Re stainless steel. To be honest, I can't be 100% sure what I have used. It's not easy - and is expensive - to get anything but the most basic materials in NZ. I scrounged it from a local dairy equipment manufacturer, and was told that it was 316. Probably correct, because its superior corrosion-resistance was, to them, more important than its mechanical properties. I still have a little. It's very feebly magnetic, so austenitic, machines readily enough, provided you attack it like you mean it, and produces a fine surface finish with sharp, positive rake carbide insert tooling, and lubricant. Not too bad dry, and HSS works OK, again avoiding rubbing contact or timid cuts.
The martensitic 400 series SS are easier to machine, but have less corrosion-resistance than 300 series. I strongly suspect we are at risk of over-thinking material choice: almost anything 'stainless' should be OK, and stronger than the original, which is probably nickel-plated brass.
The martensitic 400 series SS are easier to machine, but have less corrosion-resistance than 300 series. I strongly suspect we are at risk of over-thinking material choice: almost anything 'stainless' should be OK, and stronger than the original, which is probably nickel-plated brass.
Vladimir M.
Active member
I would dare to object, sir. Two examples:
1/ Hohner Morino VI M (source of photos):
Do you see any bellow pins or even bellows straps anywhere?
2/ Yupiter Bayan (source of photos):
I think that for pins is designed rather our mind, experience and habits. No offense.
Important notice: I'm NOT advocating/preferring/advising the use of screws or anything else, but I like when alternatives are considered in context and not unilaterally.
Best regards,
Vladimir
Morino xM and the Morino Artiste xD series were designed by Venanzio Morino with a central bellows lock for one thing and tool-less assembly/disassembly for another. Well actually, you can separate the bellows from the treble side without tools because the repective levers are under the grille (which can be taken off without tools). For the bass side, you have to unscrew the bass cover first because the levers are under there. And you have to be careful not to try pulling the accordion apart while the bellows lock is still engaged.I would dare to object, sir. Two examples:
1/ Hohner Morino VI M (source of photos):
Do you see any bellow pins or even bellows straps anywhere?
Turns out that both innovations were abandoned when Excelsior was taxed with extending the "Hohner Morino" branding by building the Morino xN and Morino Artiste xN series.
My main instrument has both. Problem with the central bellows lock (in Morino's version) is that if someone clueless (or an accident) tries opening the bellows by brute force, one side is attached to the bass reed blocks. In the original design, solidly to all of them (via a much stronger than usual reed block bridge with non-tiny screws). Problem at least on my instrument with the lever solution was that the bass side levers had a tendency to creep, leading to air loss. I ultimately used eyes on the bass side levers (probably intended for something like that?) to connect with a spring under tension and string. Fixed that problem but makes bass side separation and reconnection of the bellows a fiddlier affair.
Since my instrument does call for me to open it now and then, I appreciate the low threshold for doing stuff like that. The typical accordion repair person might appreciate a higher threshold in order to keep people from causing extra damage in case of problems.
I think screws make a more mellow sound, more suited to jazz than polkas. Pins with a pseudo washer tend to augment the midrange frequencies so are better for reggaeton. Anybody got any new songs or gig experiences? Just sayin…..
Mike t.
Member
It depends on whether you have become enamored with the ladies swooning over you.
I'd ditch the socks completely (except in the winter). My team has always won. Oh, wait, I forgot: I've never followed a minute of football.
But my stocks sure do better after ditching and washing the socks. I use the lucky socks to apply oil and clean the stocks on the farm guns. Go Varmints! Seriously, go. Now.
Mike t.
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