Best New Accoustic Piano Accordion

[Walker]

are the new "innovations" truly because of research and design
improvements ? or are they actually mostly dictated by market
needs, and material availability into the Future ? how many of these new
features actually would benefit the average musician ? how many of
them are really targeted for the wealthy end of the marketplace ?

Interesting questions worth mulling over.

If we consider the "innovation" in the Petosa AM1100 Grand Concert as an example. It has two interesting features already mentioned...

1. A casing made from solid mahogany
2. "bluestar" reeds

Firstly, the casing is unusual because most accordions are constructed from ply, sometimes mahogany and spruce (such as the vintage Hohner Gola) or mahogany and maple (vintage Super VI). However, the AM1100 Grand Concert dispenses with the ply altogether in favour of solid mahogany, albeit still wrapped in celluloid. How might this feature affect the tone of the accordion? Is this the difference that makes the AM1100 so "powerful"... The Petosa website states "no accordion is as powerful in sound nor will endure the test of time like an AM-1100."

Secondly, the very nature of "Bluestar" reeds is that they are not "handmade" reeds - certainly they are not cut from "nastrino" steel. Also they require exotic watchmaking processes like thermal bluing, and the reeds are intended to be used only in optimised reed blocks; with the "correct adaptation of the air flow in the reed blocks to suit the reeds". See Voci Armoniche for further details:

BlueStar® Reed

Top of the range, professional reed, very high acoustic potential. Excellent, innovative, essential, inimitable, made in Italy

www.vociarmoniche.it

Especially for accordions with a tone chamber I feel that a very big (if not the biggest) factor is/was in the woods (density, thickness, etc.) and also in the cassotto design/materials.
For several big brands the woods and the designs/forms were changed or lost over time.

Interestingly, the likes of the AM1100 has a single piece mahogany cassotto whereas the cassotto in the old Gola and Super VI were made from... aluminium!

By the way does anyone know the approximate price of a new AM1100 Grand Concert? Has anyone here played one before?

@breezybellows, I agree the new Super VI Extreme is a very good accordion. How does it compare to the Petosa AM1100?

 

[breezybellows]

By the way does anyone know the approximate price of a new AM1100 Grand Concert? Has anyone here played one before?

@breezybellows, I agree the new Super VI Extreme is a very good accordion. How does it compare to the Petosa AM1100?

I don't have a grand concert model. I purchased a 2022 AM1100 concert model century edition. It was $17k. I'm not sure what's different between the concert and grand concert. The concert model is also made with a mahogany box.

Comparing with the Super VI extreme I prefer my AM1100.

 

[breezybellows]

Thank you for sharing your experience and extensive accordion knowledge BB! Would be great to hear some clips of your AM1100...

I haven't made a lot of recordings with it. This was a recent one. I used the wet tuned blocks. Not the best video for a demo.

 

[Frank Barocco]

Firstly, the casing is unusual because most accordions are constructed from ply, sometimes mahogany and spruce (such as the vintage Hohner Gola) or mahogany and maple (vintage Super VI). However, the AM1100 Grand Concert dispenses with the ply altogether in favour of solid mahogany, albeit still wrapped in celluloid. How might this feature affect the tone of the accordion?

Among the several kinds of modern AM-1100, there are two kinds of casing/cabinet: "The AM-1100 uses one of two cabinet constructions: solid-core mahogany (Cathedral and Grand Concert) producing a crystal clear tone or 5-ply mahogany (Concert, Jazz and Musette) for deep and warm resonance."
So there you go, regarding tone. As far as I understand Petosa is not saying one is better than the other, but rather a matter of what tone is intended. The 5-ply approach is also the one used on their slightly more budget models though.

The Petosa website states "no accordion is as powerful in sound nor will endure the test of time like an AM-1100."

They say that about all their accordions across decades - claiming that "A restored AM-1100 from 1960 is, on average, ten times more valuable today than it was brand new, thanks to the relentless durability still being replicated and improved upon today."
It's a marketing strategy more than anything else (and also partly because they always did invest in quality), but the materials and design changed a lot.

Interestingly, the likes of the AM1100 has a single piece mahogany cassotto whereas the cassotto in the old Gola and Super VI were made from... aluminium!

Indeed! So were the 1960s AM-1100, which Petosa themselves on their website sometimes call the "Golden Age" of accordions.

 

[breezybellows]

Among the several kinds of modern AM-1100, there are two kinds of casing/cabinet: "The AM-1100 uses one of two cabinet constructions: solid-core mahogany (Cathedral and Grand Concert) producing a crystal clear tone or 5-ply mahogany (Concert, Jazz and Musette) for deep and warm resonance."
So there you go, regarding tone. As far as I understand Petosa is not saying one is better than the other, but rather a matter of what tone is intended. The 5-ply approach is also the one used on their slightly more budget models though.


They say that about all their accordions across decades - claiming that "A restored AM-1100 from 1960 is, on average, ten times more valuable today than it was brand new, thanks to the relentless durability still being replicated and improved upon today."
It's a marketing strategy more than anything else (and also partly because they always did invest in quality), but the materials and design changed a lot.


Indeed! So were the 1960s AM-1100, which Petosa themselves on their website sometimes call the "Golden Age" of accordions.

I traded my 1986 AM1100 for the new one. Wrt powerful tone, the golden age Petosa with Guidobaldi reeds are top notch. My teacher (with ~70 years of accordion playing) says that my 1959 Petosa is his favorite. He likes the excelsior and Giulietti tones. I liked it much more than a N series super VI

I like both my golden age chambertone and modern AM1100. But they are very different accordions. The new one has quiet mechanics and ample power, but not as powerful as the old ones (especially on the bass side). The quiet mechanics are found in most modern accordions (like Beltuna), but the power bass side is meh. I like the basses deep but crisp.

I want to add something very important that we forget all the time. Our observations of tonal balance is from playing position. It sounds very different when you listen to the accordion from in front of the accordion. When I stand in front of the accordion (when my teacher plays), I'm always astonished at how it always sounds better. A better player and a better listening position should dramatically improve the tone of most accordions.

 

[danp76]

I find that even my lesser expensive Sonola AA7 makes my Beltuna Fly sound like a tin can. The Sonola is much richer with a deeper wooden tone. Better? I guess it’s all preference.

 

[Ffingers]

I find that even my lesser expensive Sonola AA7 makes my Beltuna Fly sound like a tin can. The Sonola is much richer with a deeper wooden tone. Better? I guess it’s all preference.

...as well as better for or at what?

 

[Walker]

Siegmund made an interesting point earlier about the different types of accordion sound:

In my mind there are at least three flavors out there.

It seems to me that some folk may prefer a particular type of sound for a certain type of music. Makes sense, right.

Let's take two recently mentioned accordions. Petosa AM1100 and Beltuna Leader IV FLY to demonstrate the contrast...

Our friend BB clearly thinks a lot of the AM1100, he says:

If price is not a factor, I'll definitely pick Petosa AM-1100.

The new one has quiet mechanics and ample power,

To me, when I listen to some examples on the Tube, (in the absence of Wonkavision to let me pick up and play accordions from the screen in another continent ) I get the impression that the Petosa AM1100 is full fat, rich in harmonics, powerful, sweet, satisfying - basically it's like an extra-large slice of mama's apple pie.




In contrast, you may enjoy the sound of a Beltuna Leader IV FLY. @danp76 says with great comic turn of phrase:

makes my Beltuna Fly sound like a tin can

Dan you're so cool, good man...

But the thing is, when I think about the Beltuna Leader IV FLY, it has a lot of virtues. It's very light (partly due to the carbon fibre grille and bass plate), compact and has a bright, clean and clear tone. It seems to suit some kinds of music really well. If you watch the YouTube video at 5 mins 21 seconds to 7minutes 53 seconds: I wouldn't say it's like a tin-can at all. The music produced is beautiful and good! It's zingy, healthy and refreshing, like erm... pure organic tea tree oil.



So there!

 

[breezybellows]

Siegmund made an interesting point earlier about the different types of accordion sound:



It seems to me that some folk may prefer a particular type of sound for a certain type of music. Makes sense, right.

Let's take two recently mentioned accordions. Petosa AM1100 and Beltuna Leader IV FLY to demonstrate the contrast...

Our friend BB clearly thinks a lot of the AM1100, he says:





To me, when I listen to some examples on the Tube, (in the absence of Wonkavision to let me pick up and play accordions from the screen in another continent ) I get the impression that the Petosa AM1100 is full fat, rich in harmonics, powerful, sweet, satisfying - basically it's like an extra-large slice of mama's apple pie.




In contrast, you may enjoy the sound of a Beltuna Leader IV FLY. @danp76 says with great comic turn of phrase:


Dan you're so cool, good man...

But the thing is, when I think about the Beltuna Leader IV FLY, it has a lot of virtues. It's very light (partly due to the carbon fibre grille and bass plate), compact and has a bright, clean and clear tone. It seems to suit some kinds of music really well. If you watch the YouTube video at 5 mins 21 seconds to 7minutes 53 seconds: I wouldn't say it's like a tin-can at all. The music produced is beautiful and good! It's zingy, healthy and refreshing, like erm... pure organic tea tree oil.



So there!

My comments on Beltuna are limited to only the two specific instruments I've owned.

 

[Frank Barocco]

In my mind there are at least three flavors out there.

It seems to me that some folk may prefer a particular type of sound for a certain type of music. Makes sense, right.

Makes a lot of sense.

In the world of some other instruments, they have tried to map what kinds of woods produce what kind of tone. And to a certain degree it can be said that they succeeded, though it's not a simple science, because of course there are other factors (shapes and sizes, etc.).

There's what is called "tonewoods", a list of many woods and what tones they usually lead to.

But usually:

• Denser and harder woods usually lead to brighter tones (emphasizing higher frequencies), more overtones, and a more focused sound.
• Softer and less dense woods tend to lead to mellower tones, fewer overtones, that is you can hear the fundamental note better, and a less focused sound (that is, sound waves disperse more).
• Metals of course tend to be more extreme than hardwoods (bright, more overtones, more focused/directional).

These principles can apply to a flute/sax/tuba but just as well to an accordion cassotto or other parts of our accordions.

There are tons of resources out there comparing the density and the "Janka hardness" of all kinds of woods.

If I were to pick a new, expensive accordion I would take these factors into consideration - though of course nothing replaces playing the instrument in person and comparing them with your ears.

 

[Walker]

There's what is called "tonewoods", a list of many woods and what tones they usually lead to.

But usually:

• Denser and harder woods usually lead to brighter tones (emphasizing higher frequencies), more overtones, and a more focused sound.
• Softer and less dense woods tend to lead to mellower tones, fewer overtones, that is you can hear the fundamental note better, and a less focused sound (that is, sound waves disperse more).
• Metals of course tend to be more extreme than hardwoods (bright, more overtones, more focused/directional).

These principles can apply to a flute/sax/tuba but just as well to an accordion cassotto or other parts of our accordions.

There are tons of resources out there comparing the density and the "Janka hardness" of all kinds of woods.

If I were to pick a new, expensive accordion I would take these factors into consideration - though of course nothing replaces playing the instrument in person and comparing them with your ears.

What you say make good sense to me!

You know, where I come from the bagpipes is one of the most well-known and popular musical instruments. African Blackwood was traditionally used to make bagpipe chanters etc. I've often wondered what a high quality accordion would sound like if the reed blocks were crafted in African Blackwood. Maybe it could create a "musette" sound that was particularly good for playing pipe tunes...

However, if the African Blackwood is too hard/dense to produce reed blocks, I guess a single piece of Blackwood could be used to create a cassotto structure, and combined with another wood species for the reed blocks; maybe cedar, known for it's tonal warmth or even maple, traditionally used in violin making (or fiddles as we call them).

I guess that's the difficulty... knowing what effect that changing a single variable has on an instrument... and I doubt many accordion manufacturers would listen to an individual with such ideas, but it's still a nice thought experiment...

In this day and age, very few accordion manufacturers seem to want to make reed blocks made solely from hardwoods; it's usually red spruce. Once upon a time mahogany or walnut etc. was used extensively, but nowadays - not so much (though walnut does tend to be used in the base of the reed block only).

That's not to say some manufacturers don't go the extra mile:



As you can see, this Siwa & Figli Super Quattro Artist above from only a few years ago had been furnished with stecca a billiardo style reed blocks - using three different species of wood. Also, note the leather valves on double riveted reeds.​

 

[Frank Barocco]

Very good points @Walker
I have those thought experiments as well, frequently
African hardwood, that you mention, is super hard and dense! Makes for interesting tones, I am sure.

Two points about such hard and dense woods:
1. they tend to be expensive (not just because they are sought after, but because they tend to have slower growth, so they are not so readily available), so for most models they might be avoided, unless one wants a super expensive accordion.
2. By definition they tend to be heavier, and accordion manufacturers seem to want lighter instruments (so do most players).

I would take a heavier instrument if it sounded nicer. But that is just me.

 

[Dingo40]

I would take a heavier instrument if it sounded nicer. But that is just me.

It used to be said,"A heavy accordion is a good accordion!"

 

[breezybellows]

It used to be said,"A heavy accordion is a good accordion!"

I don't mind the weight because I always sit down and play. After I get a comfortable adjustment of shoulder straps and back straps, weight becomes a non issue. My primary accordion is a Petosa Cathedral converter that weighs 35 lbs. I play that 2-3 hours a day (at least thrice a week). It doesn't bother my back at all. After 3 hours my left thigh starts feeling the weight.


I'm always amazed at people that stand and play. I've tried it and it's super hard for me (even with a 72 bass stroller size accordion).

 

[Ventura]

i would just caution some of the newer people, when
mulling over tonewoods and other wood properties,
it matters what usage and unique properties they are
displaying IN THAT CONTEXT

examples:

the bridge on a Violin.. it is critical that it transmits the vibrations/energy
from the strings most efficiently to the soundboard (note the bone chip
embedded for the outer string)

the pin block on a Piano.. it is critical that it holds an incredible amount of tension

keys.. it is critical that a wood is used which exhibits minimal warpage over time
and is strong enough to suffer endless repetitive strain without fracture

the soundboard.. it is critical that it sends the energy off into the air
with the greatest efficiency and intact (linear)

the base of a reedblock.. it is critical that it hold a dead flat linear plane
against stress forever, and it must be airtight without exerting undue
or unequal pressure downward

so what is the prized property of the ideal type of wood for a given purpose ?
smoothness or tone ?
density for vibration or simple brute strength ?

there is no soundboard surface (or function in accordion engineering) for
vibrations to be transmitted TO through solid wood sections of any type for the
purpose of being turned into audible waveforms

while it may be nice to "feel" the vibrations as you play, energy transmitted
through the body is LOST much like an electronic device that gives off heat
as an unintended byproduct is simply less efficient. (than a better engineered
device which uses a greater percentage of input energy to produce the desired result)

so what contributes to the sound ? the type of wood in a reedblock OR
the carefully crafted shape and size of each little reedchamber ?

what matters in a tone chamber ? the curvature ? the depth ? the height ?

since virtually all surface wood elements in a high-end body are varnished/urethaned
in some way, what effect if any does the wood impart to a bounced waveform ?
or does the type of Varnish and thickness impart any change to reflected soundwaves ?

just because the common Mahogany product from Asia LOOKS
like it has a linear grain much like Spruce does not mean you can
make a guitar soundboard out of it that is actually worth a crap, though a
good salespitch can sucker many wealthy guitar collectors into thinking so..

(there really is nothing like Spruce.. period..
nothing even comes a close second in the universe)

 

[Aaron]

$60k? For that price, and if I could guarantee buyers, I would learn to make accordions from scratch. I would make 2 or 3 per year and be blissfully content.

 

[debra]

$60k? For that price, and if I could guarantee buyers, I would learn to make accordions from scratch. I would make 2 or 3 per year and be blissfully content.

I heard that that's essentially what they do: a one man (or at least very small team) making about 3 per year. I have a hard time believing this, especially since all accordions, including the Gola, are made out of over 95% standard parts not made in-house. (It depends on how you count percentages, so could be 80 to 99% depending on whether you take the size and weight of parts into account or not.) Essentially, to make your own accordion you have to build a treble and bass compartment and reed blocks from scratch. (These items have quite some influence on the sound.) There is then still a lot of work to be done because even standard parts still require work: the key arms have to be bent in the right shape, pallets have to be fitted and adjusted by hand, reeds have to be tuned, valves glued on, reed plates waxed onto blocks, the whole bass mechanics have to be assembled and all the levers adjusted so the mechanism works properly in the bass compartment... A heck of a job still to be done even though 99% of the materials are outsourced.

 

[Aaron]

I heard that that's essentially what they do: a one man (or at least very small team) making about 3 per year. I have a hard time believing this, especially since all accordions, including the Gola, are made out of over 95% standard parts not made in-house. (It depends on how you count percentages, so could be 80 to 99% depending on whether you take the size and weight of parts into account or not.) Essentially, to make your own accordion you have to build a treble and bass compartment and reed blocks from scratch. (These items have quite some influence on the sound.) There is then still a lot of work to be done because even standard parts still require work: the key arms have to be bent in the right shape, pallets have to be fitted and adjusted by hand, reeds have to be tuned, valves glued on, reed plates waxed onto blocks, the whole bass mechanics have to be assembled and all the levers adjusted so the mechanism works properly in the bass compartment... A heck of a job still to be done even though 99% of the materials are outsourced.

without knowing the specific industry and construction techniques, and basing my knowledge on experience in manufacturing assembly, I would bet the number is closer to 99 than to 80. For the sake of consistency, any complex object will most certainly be made mostly with jigs/fixtures or computerized machinery. This also leads to speed of assembly. If all the pieces were present, I'd bet the thing could be mostly assembled from scratch in one or two days, by one person. Ven so, $10k labor and $50k parts? We are clearly paying for more than materials plus labor.

 

[Ventura]

i tend to believe the tooling can be prohibitively costly in both time and technique,
as such things as body/shell forms, when lost to fire or bankrupcy,
or lost to history and a modern outfit wishes to "recreate" something.. well
it never seems like true reverse engineering such as a Super VI or AM is even attempted.

one would think that now, with lazer measuring devices and computing power
available in even small shops, his could be accomplished, and NOTHING would
"sell" a classic model better than being able to advertise and offer one that is
exactly physically true to original spec

but it is never even attempted.. dressing up whatever available body-forms are
at your disposal is what you get.

conclusion: they don't have the "chops" anymore, and/or making Body Forms
is just incredibly difficult without the guarantee/scale of "numbers" to pay for it over
a reasonable run of time

when Crucianelli burned, and the PanCordion shells from NewYork were lost,
the "new" contractor did not faithfully attempt to spec the new Baton Body to match
the original.. just the cosmetics. Back then there were still "numbers" that would have
justified this, as well as the Principal in this instance was EXPECTING a true spec
for her money. She did not find out until years later, when she ordered several LLMM
Baton's for inventory, and i inspected one for her with an intent to publish, that the
inside curve did not have the clearance to handle the second set of L reeds when
they flexed. I had to gently carve the batch to at least take care of the "buzz"..
but was the thickness of the shell still enough in that area? They engineered
it into the original shells in New York, and doubtless took all factors into account,
but it just makes me wonder what else the cosmetic modern copies of the various
famous models and brands have also overlooked
(or not been swift enough to understand)

the Myron models from New York, and certain runs that Crucianelli built,
are easily in the same class as the best of the Golden Age classics, but a
modern Myron is just like a modern Super VI.. just another nice accordion
but really nothing special over any other modern high end box.

the point is, Debra's "percentage" is perhaps even reduced a bit more when you
are weighting the "Value" between new top end accordions and include the
modern imitation classics

 

[debra]

without knowing the specific industry and construction techniques, and basing my knowledge on experience in manufacturing assembly, I would bet the number is closer to 99 than to 80. For the sake of consistency, any complex object will most certainly be made mostly with jigs/fixtures or computerized machinery. This also leads to speed of assembly. If all the pieces were present, I'd bet the thing could be mostly assembled from scratch in one or two days, by one person. Ven so, $10k labor and $50k parts? We are clearly paying for more than materials plus labor.

Sure, if you count individual parts like every individual screw then over 99% of an accordion consists of standard parts. But it isn't really fair to compare a screw to the pieces of wood to construct the treble and bass side and the reed blocks. The parts that are bought from suppliers may account for $10k, what is made in-house is under $1k. Labor is probably another $10k and the rest is research, know-how and marketing... all skills developed over decades.