Differences between Irish and British folk

[Pippa]

To my uneducated ears, folk music is folk music. I had a few Irish fiddle lessons as a teenager, and am uninitiated in the world of British folk.

Perhaps we could have a discussion about the main points of similarity and difference between the styles?

I'd love to hear some examples with the differences pointed out, and perhaps learn something! (Oh how sorely I miss studying music!)

 

[jarvo]

Well apparently it gets even murkier and more muddled than that......once you take the lid off the Folk tin you then get down to the sub palette colour charts so to speak as it all gets regional........I was going to go to a folk group in Brampton last night ,but I bottled it as I realised I know next to nowt about it.....bit of brushing up first............ :hb :ch

 

[george garside]

I am not an expert on Irish Trad music so if anybody who is can throw some light on things please do

In a sense it is treated perhaps more seriously by its adherents than are most forms of British folk stuff and is of course non the worse for that. It has a sort of governing body known as Comhaltas (GOOGLE THERE WEBSITE FOR A LOT IF INFO) . They have a network of branches throughout Ireland (and possibly elsewhere) and run formal classes and are also responsible for running The Fleadh (all Ireland championship competitions).

The definition of ITM on their website is, probably of necessity , not simple or clear cut.

It is probably because of the existence and efforts of this and other organisations that the tradition in Ireland is unbroken and the skills have been passed down the generations to a far greater degree than in England. and maybe some parts of Scotland.

Broadly speaking a lot of the ~English traditions faded and have been subsequently reivived ( morris dancing is just one example of this) There are also interesting regional variations in the way tunes are played.

The central body for English folk music and dance is EFDSS (English folk song and dance society ) with headquarters in Cecil Sharp House in London. They have a comprehensive library of old and collected manuscripts, run classes, hold ceilidhs, have local branches and dance clubs and a shop at HQ and on line. Google their website.

In Scotland I am not aware of a central body for music and dance but there is the Associaation of Box & Fiddle Clubs and the magazine Box and fiddle (google) Also the well established Royal Scottish Country Dance Society with branches throughout the UK and abroad.

I have not attempted to define anything but hopefully provided some pointers for those wanting to know more.

Traditional Music of the British isles ( and Ireland) is a very wide ranging anad interesting subject and as it is a living tradition things develop and intermingle anad become very difficult to define clearly
george

 

[george garside]

Well apparently it gets even murkier and more muddled than that......once you take the lid off the Folk tin you then get down to the sub palette colour charts so to speak as it all gets regional........I was going to go to a folk group in Brampton last night ,but I bottled it as I realised I know next to nowt about it.....bit of brushing up first............ :hb :ch

Jarvo - The easiest way of brushing up is to go along without a box and just sit in and see whats going on. I presume by folk group you mean some sort of joiny in type of session. Regular sessions tend to play more or less the same tunes regularly with occasional additions and often ;not everybody joins in with everything and newcomers may only join in with one or two tunes. There is usualy no expectation or obligation on anybody to start and lead a tune but in a good mannered session newcomers are asked if they would like to play something - a quick shake of the head is all thats needed if you dont want so to do.

Some find it helpful to take along a little digital or other recorder to record tunes on so they can have a go at them in the privacy of their own home!

george

 

[Anyanka]

My fairly uneducated and highly personal take on Irish folk vs English/Welsh/Scottish tunes is that there's less melody and more speed. Having said that, I love early Clannad and Altan, i.e. Irish folk SONG. A lot of the instrumental pieces such as jigs & reels are on the frantic side to my ears and start sounding samey after a while. I've had a go at a lot of them on the whistle, but it's too much like hard work.

While I couldn't explain the difference in technical (or any) terms, I can hear usually hear it quite clearly.

 

[george garside]

My personal view is more or less in agreement with Anyankas. There seems to be a modern trend in ''Irish''session playing to play flat out and even lose the tune by smothering it with too much ornamentation . This also makes it difficult for some , like me, to distinguish between tunes in sets. However played at dance speed and with limited ornamentation it can be very nice indeed . This criticism applies particulary to session playing and seems to apply particularly to ' Irish sessions' with non Irish musicians trying a biit too hard to play 'irish' and in my opinion doing it badly! . There are of course many wonderful Irish trad plaayers who are a pleasure to listen to.

George

 

[Johnny J]

There's also a distinction between "folk" and "traditional" in many quarters although they both used to mean the same thing.

Most Scots and Irish traditional "folkies" would regard folk music to be guitar and song centered including singer song writers and so on. Generally, they would prefer to say that they played traditional music.

However, in the "Box and Fiddle Scene", the emphasis seems to be on the dance band music and they would describe their music as traditional while the likes of what *I* might call traditional is often dismissed as "folk fiddling" or "folk accordion". Therefore, great musicians such as Phil Cunningham and Aly Bain would fall into that latter category.

Personally, I'm not too keen on barriers and all music is there to be enjoyed ebven although we may have particular preferences at different times.

 

[Bill V]

I am with JJ on this ,my own playing time is a bit of what I fancy. Swing,Scottish,Irish,Northumbrian,English,French,etc.Scottish gets a bit more than the others,it has its own categories East and West Coast,but I have a hard time discerning the differences.It's all music to me so vive la difference real or imagined.

 

[george garside]

Jimmy Shand played quite a bit of Irish stuff at a nice steady, but not particularly slow, speed. He recorded a set in 1939 on the Beltona label MR823. tunes were

Larry OGaff, Paddy OCarrol and St Patricks day.

fortunately this along with many other of his recordings on Beltona label are now available on a double CDs (36 tracks) King of the Button box volume 2 The quality is good and it is available from http://www.musicinscotland.com


george

 

[maki]

Comhaltas is more or less a competitive body.
It doesn't govern Irish music which is a tradition that is handed down, usually directly, often through family and friends.
Folk music is a shared aesthetic, and not ruled from above by a hierarcy.
One thing I've read, and I don't know if it’s true, was that what made the music so consistent is that Irelands country side was until relatively recently, isolated and modern music was slow to penetrate.
Often the older people learned music at a young age and that was what/how
they would play for decades. Witness Kitty Hayes.

Criticism of the modern session scene is well founded, and the farther from its root source the worse this can become.
Though it being a folk form, this varies session to session.
Another thought is that modern masters, in order to eek a living from a small and poor genre, must try and do something to
stand out in order to sell music and concert seats, this could drive the speed and heavy ornamentations.
BTW, I've seen vids of All Ireland Comhaltas champions play, perfectly and at tremendous speed, and thought to myself,
"That's just terrible!" They flatten the bejebous out of it. Great skill, sure, but no beauty in it.

Fortunately, you can still find recordings of old style Irish music with the lovely lilt without too much trouble.

Irish dance tunes are well known and commonly played around the world.
There are also songs, and ballads which are what most people think of a folk music, and often similar to Brit/NA and other parts of the Anglo world. Another major component of ITM is Sean-nós singing which is festinating and informs some slow air tunes. Uilleann pipers can mimic this style to great effect.
Anyways, that is just a n00bs view of the thing and likey all wrong.

Most interesting to me is that much of the Irish Traditional body of dance types (jigs, reels, polkas, etc.) originated elsewhere as the popular styles from England, Scotland, or Europe of centuries past. It got to Ireland and took root there, was given a lilt,
and stayed on.

 

[TomBR]

Big subject, but sticking mainly to traditional dance music.

English could be split three ways. (1) The bulk of what you hear in English sessions will be polkas and jigs, played fairly steadily with a strong regular beat, often with a strong offbeat. Arguably heavily influenced by box playing, particularly melodeons - oom-pa basses work fine! Personally I think theres much more continental influence in this music than is generally acknowledged - nineteenth century band music and mechanical organs! (Also quite a bit of Music Hall.) You only have to go back to recordings or fifty or sixty years ago to hear how much the emphasis has shifted to the off beat in that time. This is a very accessible style.
(2) An older strand of English music is sometimes labelled Playford after the huge collection of tunes published under that name, starting in 1651. These tunes are arguably more beautiful, more often minor with a melancholy flavour and can be played at a wide range of speeds. More recently this style has been augmented by tunes from research into manuscript tunebooks from before about 1820. Iron legs is a well known example.

Big generalisation and with immense respect to both, I guess one could suggest that John Kirkpatrick often plays in style 1 and Andy Cutting in style 2.

The third strand of English is Northumbrian, but thats another matter altogether.

Scottish and Irish are obviously closely related, though players in either style are often irritated when both are lumped under an undifferentiated Celtic banner. They do have lots in common, and there are many tunes that belong to both traditions.
Any attempt at briefly describing the difference between Scottish and Irish is likely to fail to some degree but Id suggest that Scottish tends to have a harder edge to the rhythm and a diamond edged brilliance to it, Irish has a softer edged flow and the ornamentation is a crucial part of the music.
See, I failed! Listening is the only way!

Talking about Irish now as thats my main interest of the two.

People, including musicians, often say it all sounds the same. Thats fair and no criticism of them or the music. Anyone who says that is hearing the style, but doesnt (yet) know it well enough to hear it in chunks that make sense of whats going on, even when its flowing fast.
When you slow it down, it becomes more accessible, and so some people say they prefer that.
To my mind a characteristic of a great tune is that it works at a range of speeds, and I think this is one of the great things about very many Irish tunes.
Martin Hayes is probably the most famous exponent of playing Irish music at slow speeds - but he can of course go like lightning when he wishes.
Comhaltas gets a lot of criticism from the general music community (of which it is in no way a governing body) but if you watch some of the videos at http://www.comhaltas.ie in nearly all cases, people are playing at an appropriate speed. Ive never found one where I thought the player was going too fast.

Its very important to note that a master and a lower standard player could play the same tune at exactly the same speed, but one will sound rushed, hurried and unmusical, and the other will sound like they have all the time in the world.

As a progression Id suggest listening to Martin Hayes for the sheer beauty of the tunes at a very steady pace, then going to Josephine Marsh and/or Micheal ORaghallaigh for tunes for lovely relaxed playing at a more conventional tempo.

For playing on PA that sounds relaxed yet is at full speed, how about

 

[Matt Butcher]

Thanks for such an interesting summary Tom and great to have a view from someone who appreciates all three traditions.

 

[TomBR]

Thanks Matt!

Just been for a walk this lovely blowy sunny November morning, and the thought came to mind that with Scottish music the addition of a snare-drum will often sound good, and with Irish, it often won't. I now suspect this may be circular - the answer may not be obvious without familiarity with both styles!

(Ceili band music for Irish setdancing is an exception - snare drum is standard there, but it is quite a Scottish sounding style!)

 

[jarvo]

Thanks Matt!

Just been for a walk this lovely blowy sunny November morning, and the thought came to mind that with Scottish music the addition of a snare-drum will often sound good, and with Irish, it often wont. I now suspect this may be circular - the answer may not be obvious without familiarity with both styles!

(Ceili band music for Irish setdancing is an exception - snare drum is standard there, but it is quite a Scottish sounding style!)

I therefore refer you back to your comment or a paraphrase therof :

To the uninformed and uninitiated it all sounds the same not as harshly meant as it is put , but guilty as charged I am afraid.....

I went to my first Ceilidh in June / July of this year ,halfway through the evening we started on our table to play a slightly irreverent version of Name That Tune and I am afraid that the winning answer was always The same as the last one !!

Now the music playing was fine, all well played instruments and the dancing was danced by them as wished to and there was a demonstration of Ladies Clog Dancing which was highly impressive and almost acrobatic in places..there was a raffle and I did not win anything ...not unusual.....did I enjoy myself ? Yes.

Would I go to another. Maybe.

But .....and this is a big but , about the music sounding the same.........so too can other folk or ethnic genres like The Blues, Bluegrass (Endless and monotonous after a while ...there are only so many Salty Dogs that John Hardy can paddle up his Cripple Creek,) Russian Folk (especially those for balalaika...and I know cos I have one ....its got three strings two of which are tuned to E !! and the other is A ....and you fret it with your thumb.....)

Is this a feature of ethnic (used in its widest context to include the traditional folk of these isles) music.....dictated by the simpler structure of it ....in fact are we listening to the same bloody tune that has been distorted by endless passing rounds and interpretations by different musicians that we think there are more than one !! (slightly exaggerated )

Finally , I am not saying that I do not like ethnic music , I love the Blues ,especially acoustic Delta Blues.......in fact I like all music but wont get defensive about it and do not stick to any one genre ....I am perhaps a bit of a musical tart in that respect ....dipping into the genres where I hear a tune that I like and try it out ,one way or another.....we seem to have strayed somewhat from our subject ooops.....Back on track , just picking up on TomBRs little comment that Trad Music can sound the same ....refreshing to hear .

Jarvo

 

[TomBR]

Hi Jarvo,
Can't remember where it was, but somewhere I heard/read a comment that "most traditional arts consist of endless variation within a narrow framework," and I think it's prob true whether talking about music, dances, woven rugs, pottery etc.

Viz musical traditions, the "sameness" may be worse for musicians from other styles/traditions, who are used to understanding what they hear!
The other approach is just to enjoy the bubble and flow of the music, without concern as to whether it's the same tune or not! I'm sure this is what a lot of people do who enjoy mainly instrumental bands in folk festival concerts.

As a friend of mine, a fairly critical and opinionated classical buff and player said after a trad concert I was playing in "it's really nice and relaxing to hear simple repetitive music played in tune with good rhythm!"

Music is normally reckoned to consist of rhythm, melody and harmony, but I'd suggest there is some music where the way they are combined as texture is actually more important. Scottish/Irish trad is prob a candidate.

Turning the thing around a bit, when I hear a piece of classical variations I often think - Composer - "you're making all those dramatic changes, and you haven't even started to explore the nuances of the melody you started with!"

 

[jarvo]

Hi Jarvo,
Cant remember where it was, but somewhere I heard/read a comment that most traditional arts consist of endless variation within a narrow framework, and I think its prob true whether talking about music, dances, woven rugs, pottery etc.

Viz musical traditions, the sameness may be worse for musicians from other styles/traditions, who are used to understanding what they hear!
The other approach is just to enjoy the bubble and flow of the music, without concern as to whether its the same tune or not! Im sure this is what a lot of people do who enjoy mainly instrumental bands in folk festival concerts.

As a friend of mine, a fairly critical and opinionated classical buff and player said after a trad concert I was playing in its really nice and relaxing to hear simple repetitive music played in tune with good rhythm!

Music is normally reckoned to consist of rhythm, melody and harmony, but Id suggest there is some music where the way they are combined as texture is actually more important. Scottish/Irish trad is prob a candidate.

Turning the thing around a bit, when I hear a piece of classical variations I often think - Composer - youre making all those dramatic changes, and you havent even started to explore the nuances of the melody you started with!

I think that most of what you say is spot on....and I am not being critical of the sameness, I just accept it for what it is, as you put it endless variation within a narrow framework.....and have a little smile about it ,but it is refreshing to hear a skilled proponent of the genre say so ..and I think that your classical buff friend put it rather nicely....

If you suggest this repetitive or samey ness ,very often you get a very defensive and sometimes hostile reaction from devotees of a genre, and frankly that tends to put people off that particular style..... ( Bluegrass and I are having a big falling out at the moment.......there are those ,shall we say overseas ,that think that there is only BG and the only way to play certain instruments is in a BG style blah blah)

I also think that familiarity with the tunes will help enormously and then recognising the subtleties in the patterns and how they flow and ebb will enhance the joy and pleasure in the listening as well as the playing.........

And lets be absolutely honest ....a lot of modern music follows traditions and patterns which clone styles and tunes.....


Jarvo

 

[george garside]

when playing for 'English' ceilidhs I try to use tunes with words, or ones that are likely to be recognised to keep the interest not only of the dancers but of those 'sitting out'

tunes like Blaydon races, lilly the pink, coming round the mountains, waltzing matilda, geordy hinnie, Maggie, life on the ocean waves, in and out the windows, british grenadiers, loch Lomond , swanea river, oh suzanah, Scotland the brave, and a great many others can be used as jigs, reels, polkas or whatevers, all adjustments being made on the hoof.

there are also loads of singalong waltzes that can be played for dances such as 'the waltz country dance, st bernards waltz,etc. eg daisy daisy, oh dear what can the matter be,, wild colonial boy, endearing young charms, loch Lomond, irish eyes, westering home et etc etc

to me, playing for a ceilidh is just as much about 'entertaining' those sitting out as providing motivation for the dancers

george

 

[jarvo]

Well ,okay George, that sounds fine for those of a certain disposition and a resolute nature ....but I am a bit like the Genesis song from the 90's....

" I can't dance ( I can't sing )" :lol:

.....to be honest that Ceilidh that I went to was in Northumberland and very much leant toward that regions tunes and music...obviously . Nothing wrong with the music other than as it was unfamiliar it just seemed a bit samey .........but it drove along and bounced a lot of thighs and tapped a lot of feet.......

Jarvo

 

[george garside]

There is a unique exhuberence about well played northumbrian music which , although English, to me fits somewhere in between English and Scottish dance music styles - could of course be something to do with where Northumberland is!

It is also very enjoyable and satisfying to play!

george {} :ch

 

[Jack Campin]

"what made the music so consistent is that Irelands country side was until relatively recently, isolated and modern music was slow to penetrate."

I think that's a bit wrong in two ways.

Firstly, pro musicians are mobile and always have been. (There were also amateur or part-time musicians who travelled as part of their work - tailors, tinkers, policemen, whatever). So tunes could travel far and fast. Repertoire ended up being common to the whole country, precisely because no part of it was really isolated.

Style was different, and definitely wasn't consistent. Amateur musicians tied to the land didn't travel, and while they might have picked up new tunes from visitors, they played them in their own way. So you got a wide variety of regional styles.