Does Free-Bass hinder interest/development in the Stradella?

[BobM]

Ive long thought that the pop ballad recipe (but maybe not the style) is very suited to the accordion, i.e. simple chords given life through the use of non-root bass notes.

For sure. You can hear these simple but compelling bass lines all over the place in Beatles hits, etc. Thered be quite a bit of music that doesnt have so much use for them, though, wouldnt you say? Or does, but only in places. It really is part of the style.[/quote]

I like the long walk down bass lines that appeared in songs like Whiter Shade of Pale, also the James Taylor chords/bass, Abba etc. Elton John in this song knows when to hold, change and release the bass note, to great effect.

To be clear, Im not saying that you have to play these songs, but the components are transferable and sound great on the Accordion, no free-bass required.

 

[Russ]

A good stradella player is just as rich and complex as a freebass player and vice versa. The conservatories are loosing out by not teaching stradella imo. Its the player not the instrument.

 

[BrandyD]

A good stradella player is just as rich and complex as a freebass player and vice versa. The conservatories are loosing out by not teaching stradella imo. Its the player not the instrument.

thank you Russ! This is exactly what I was thinking and the reason for my question near the beginning of this conversation on the difference between the two. Im a long time Stradella player (since the 1970s).

Brandy

 

[Deleted member 48]

Conservatory accordion curriculum has both free bass and stradella.

 

[BobM]

A good stradella player is just as rich and complex as a freebass player and vice versa. The conservatories are loosing out by not teaching stradella imo. Its the player not the instrument.

Im only playing the Accordion at all because I borrowed one at of curiosity and what impressed by what the Stradella had the potential to do. Im still finding the full chromatic (LH) scale difficult, but have enough of it for my uses at the moment.

BobM.

 

[Russ]

OK thanks Steven. I thought you had to play free bass to go to conservatory. I play both FB and Stradella but sadly I play both very poorly.

 

[donn]

The conservatory is kind of a wild card in this conversation. I have a hunch that if we were all enrolled in a conservatory, most of us couldn't get out of there fast enough.

 

[BobM]

I went to a well respected performer/teacher to get my playing position etc checked over, I played a little and was asked, why don't you have a free-bass model?

My thoughts where completely at odds with my mumbled response..

BobM.

 

[Deleted member 48]

Conservatories have entre exams where accordionists have to proof adequate levels of both free bass and stradella bass playing. You can not choose between stradella or free bass.future accordion teachers must master both. Focus is on free bass. But believe me, the students can play it all, from folk to musette, from Frosini to Berio. You can always visit open school days and attend public open classes. Then one sees the level and all round aspects of formal accordion education. Like any other music instrument.

 

[simonking]

I have a hunch that if we were all enrolled in a conservatory, most of us couldnt get out of there fast enough.

I suspect its actually the case that most of couldnt get in there at all!

Any aspiring all-round university-level accordion student will want to and should want to play free bass, and if you can play free bass to any even mediocre standard, then stradella will be no problem for you.

But yes, it is a red herring really as there are literally a handful of players in the whole country in this category.

 

[BobM]

I was paid to have a musical education, but after 45 years as a professional musician I know only too well that there are many different outcomes from having a music degree. Being well rounded is not always one of them, and for some it's just the starting point to becoming a truly useful musician, and some never get to cross that line.

 

[Deleted member 48]

I agree a conservatory or university degree in accordion is only a starting point for a professional music career.
And as you truly say, not even necessary if the player has the talent and the audience.
Large majority of the accordion audiences and accordionists will prefer Stradella bass popular music.

However, professional training of future accordion teachers can not ignore classical music and modern music, and so free bass convertor instruments are indispensable.

Conservatory trained accordionists can and do play a large variety of music genres, including all sorts of popular music accordion styles.

The question is, can the accordion community, outside the conservatories, accept the accordion as a music instrument for classical music??
That still ( after so many decades the free bass and convertor has been around ) can pose a problem in the mindsetting of many accordionists.

Not because of the accordion as a music instrument, but because they dislike or hate classical music and modern/avant-garde music.

The free bass or convertor accordion is not the cause of these ( a pity sometimes seperated worlds between popular music and "serious" music in the heads of many accordionists.

You could find countless pop/rock guitar or pop/jazz/rock piano players that also dislike classical music, but I don't hear these people blaming it on the guitar or the piano as music instruments.

Lets not mix up the love or dislike of music genres/styles with music instruments.
One sole instrument can be a tool for playing in different styles/genres.

The inconvenient truth still is the conservatory accordion students learn all music genres on the accordion.
But many accordionists want to keep the accordion held in a cage of popular music only, because they just can't stand or listen classical music...

In fact it is the conservatory accordion students that have a more open mindsetting regarding the different music genres being played on the boxes.

(I accept conservatory accordion education has the focus on free bass study, but, "hey, what did you expect ?" , you don't see trumpet, piano, guitar, violin students at conservatories spending all day playing popular music. They have to cover all the music history timeline, thus focusing on classical and old music in the first place).

 

[Matt Butcher]

I have played some freebass with lessons, exams etc. and I like it, because of the sound (not better or worse, just different, I love them both). Practising freebass improved my stradella playing, simply because of the focus on moving the left hand around and thinking about both hands at once.
BobM’s question, if I read it right, was not so much about conservatory players. If I read it right the question is, what is holding back players from making more of the stradella? In the (English) circles that I have moved in, I don’t think any academic bias against stradella has been very influential. It would be more than offset by the rolling of the eyes and even anger that can happen when an accordion player tries something unusual in public.
Based on what I have observed, which may not be typical, I think some factors are these:
• For some players the tune is the thing, and progress consists of being able to play more tunes. For some players this goes with a suspicion of arrangements, fiddling around with things etc. (I’m not talking about any sheet music vs ear playing debate here, I think it cuts across both.) So these are less likely to explore the left hand beyond the basics. Obviously playing tunes is great, I think some may have missed the benefit of adding to the performance of the tune by how it is accompanied. Some of these tune-focused players also tell me they prefer playing than listening to others play.
• Some of the best stradella playing I’ve heard has come from players with a keen eye on the audience – players who play for dancing and know the value of giving the tune a kick from time to time with a bass run, or players who have to face a jazz club audience who expect a driving bass line behind their standards.
• I am lucky enough to know a number of club players who make very creative use of the left hand. (Most of these combine sheet music and ear playing i.e. start from written notes and add their own touches.) One adds a lot of runs, two use lush harmonies etc. These guys, as well as being sensitive musicians, have all had lessons from good players at some point in their lives. I’m reasonably happy with the amount of left hand movement I get into my stradella playing myself, and I know that for me, the lessons I had made all the difference. (In my case it was from sheet music, it could equally be taught by ear.) Because the lessons introduced me to patterns that I wouldn’t have thought of myself, and taught me ways to get around the left hand, I can now do little things that I wouldn’t have come up with on my own.
• BobM’s has very extensive professional experience. With this comes a strong knowledge of harmony. This knowledge has probably been learned initially through study and reinforced by many, many hours of putting it into practice. (Once again, I had better add, I am sure you can learn harmony from sheet music or by ear and that debate has got nothing to do with what I am trying to say.) So, the patterns I can come up with on the stradella are limited not only by my technique but also by my imagination – with a greater understanding of how the harmony works, I could do more. But to get this knowledge of harmony takes work and this lack of knowledge is not limited to the accordion – I’m sure the average Grade 5 piano player doesn’t know this stuff either, unless they have picked it up somewhere else.
So, does the interest in free bass hinder stradella development? I don’t know and it’s possible, but there are high profile role models for advanced stradella playing (Richard Galliano comes to mind, jazz star and Deutsche Grammophon recording artist who publishes advice on applying stradella to jazz harmony), and I’m not sure most of us look to the world of the conservatory or the concert hall as our inspiration. I think the limitations that some accordion players place on their use of the left hand may come from:
• Focus on playing tunes, maybe at times at the expense of other aspects of the music;
• Focus on playing rather than close listening or thinking about what an audience might respond to;
• Lack of access to teachers or teaching materials;
• But also the difficulty of combining technical progress on an instrument with progress in musical understanding. This wouldn’t matter so much if we had all learnt playing technique as children, or if we were playing a melody-only instrument.
I think this links in with ideas that BobM has put forward before about the importance of teachers and players with professional experience sharing their knowledge (the benefit would be at least as great if this came from ear/trad/popular players as well as sheet music/conservatory players). BobM has previously suggested a series of videos or published material on left hand “moves”. (For me, one burning question is, when do I use a diminished chord? The answer may be, never.) It would be great, though I appreciate no one has the time to do it. A teacher might have the incentive to do it though, in terms of reputation.

 

[BobM]

Gosh Matt,

I was just about to post a comment re Stephen's post and I think that you have pretty much nailed my views, only better than I could have..

My original question is about trying to find out whether the existence of free-bass lying (for most box players) just out of reach, has a chilling effect on the Stradella. Rather like, "Oh I leave all that fancy stuff to those folks with those free-basses.

The reason why I ask, is I heard a couple of players of eastern european origin with RH technique to spare, playing a relatively poor LH which didn't in any way keep up with the RH. It was as though they had been taught to play well, but didn't know what to do when playing without any music and possibly free-bass.

Could they not hear that it was unbalanced? Did they not care? Where they struggling because of the lack of printed arrangements?

I don't think that it's necessary to get too stressed out about harmony, it's not like pure four part harmony where there a clear rules in place to achieve a particular outcome. What is useful to know about is the function of chords, the way I think of them is, Major= complete and stable. Minor= sad, melancholy. 7th= a major chord tipping over from the top, restless, Diminished= unstable, ambiguous, incomplete.

Matt, the way to think of Dim chords is that they're very often transient, they often fill a gap in the harmony line that might sound abrupt with out it. If you think of Barbershop singing and music from that period, close harmony is/was very desirable. Like; hold down a G bass, and then play 1 Gmaj/G 2 Dmin/G 3 Gdim/G 4 G7/G finishing on a Cmaj People don't hear that sound as often now, but the Dim chord still has uses in other ways, intro's and "turnarounds" in the more jazz flavoured idiom.

On a personal note, my struggle is with the RH, I may have left it too late in life to get as good as I would wish to be on the accordion, so I've made up my mind to enjoy the ride. Someone once said of me that i have the LH of a much better player, a sort of compliment I suppose..

 

[donn]

I think the limitations that some accordion players place on their use of the left hand may come from:
• Focus on playing tunes, maybe at times at the expense of other aspects of the music;
• Focus on playing rather than close listening or thinking about what an audience might respond to;
• Lack of access to teachers or teaching materials;
• But also the difficulty of combining technical progress on an instrument with progress in musical understanding. This wouldn’t matter so much if we had all learnt playing technique as children, or if we were playing a melody-only instrument.
I think this links in with ideas that BobM has put forward before about the importance of teachers and players with professional experience sharing their knowledge (the benefit would be at least as great if this came from ear/trad/popular players as well as sheet music/conservatory players). BobM has previously suggested a series of videos or published material on left hand “moves”. (For me, one burning question is, when do I use a diminished chord? The answer may be, never.) It would be great, though I appreciate no one has the time to do it. A teacher might have the incentive to do it though, in terms of reputation.

Maybe ...

Im in the same boat with that diminished chord, except that it hasnt been a burning question. (Its easier to ignore, without a whole row devoted to it.) Now youve got me wondering, and if that lasts, the next time I pick up the accordion, Ill fiddle around a little trying some random things with it. Kind of like poking around with a piece of a jigsaw puzzle, to see if theres a spot where it fits. If theres really significant potential there, I trust my musical intuition to hear it and find that application. Maybe not today, but it will click in eventually.

That isnt going to keep up with a thorough education at the hands of a real master, but its learning thats available to all who can benefit from it. We all have an extensive education in Western music, and we all have accordions.

I wouldnt guess that learning playing technique as children would change matters much. Ive played with a fair number of wind instruments players, most of them from a school band background. Sometimes I think the band programs siphon off the children who would be musicians and turn them into automatons who need instructions in order to perform. I suppose the reality is just that relatively few would have taken an active interest in music anyway, and the rest benefit from an activity theyd never have pursued on their own. But in any case, Im not sorry I didnt go that route.

 

[BobM]

The Diminished chord is easier to get to grips with if you think of it as being a semitone above the root, and performing its "smoothing role" as previously mentioned.

So instead of playing say, C to a A7, try C to a Csharp dim which you access with your 3rd finger on the counterbass row and 2nd on Dim chord on the G row.

This gives you a first inversion A7b9 chord, I haven't sharps on my keyboard, so it looks like A7b9 over a C sharp root.

Moving on to a Dmin or Dmin7th and then G7, and then for a very dark jazz effect reach over to the C sharp/Db on the counterbass. For this, release the bass note whilst playingthe flat 5th with the 3rd finger, and finish on the C. This makes for a big sound, especially when played slowly. The missing stradella 5th note on the Dom7th chord makes this possible.

I could demonstrate this in seconds.. sigh..

But while checking this, I just had a happy accident and found a new (for me) bass/chord combination, Oh Happy Day!

BobM.

 

[losthobos]

My favourite thread everz....thanks everyone

 

[donn]

The missing stradella 5th note on the Dom7th chord makes this possible.

... for you. Not so much for the French Stradella. I did fool around with it a bit this morning, and found that Cdim7 sounds a lot like F7 + C alternate bass (literally the same thing on my setup.) That seemed to tie into a phenomenon that does turn up occasionally at the margins of the types of music I would normally play, where somehow two dominant sevenths appear in a row. In C for example, D7 G7 or in A minor, B7 E7. French Stradella diminished seems to pull in the same direction, maybe because Ddim7 and G7 chord buttons are the same.

I could demonstrate this in seconds.. sigh..

I could fail to get it, equally well at either speed. Im usually the last person to ask for diagrams, but heres an application where it might help, if we had some useful convention. Like maybe, putting the row name on the right for column spacing reasons, and it seems to follow to put bass notes on the right ...

Dm
++o+o+ D

G7
+o++o+ G

G7 + C#
+o++++ G
++++++ D
+++++o A

C
+++oo+ C

(Please, no PDFs!)

 

[BobM]

Donn, do you have a link to a French stradella layout chart?

BobM.

 

[donn]

I don't know of one. Briefly, there are 3 bass and 3 chords, with basses ascending by half steps on a diagonal (as in common Stradella), so C column is Ab E C Cmaj Cmin C7.

(But because the above-mentioned half-step diagonal is across a column diagonal, the button that ends up feeling like it's above E is not Ab, but Eb - the counterbass for C minor. And allegedly there are other versions where the extra counterbass row is offset by one from what I'm saying so the column really is Eb E C Cmaj Cmin C7, but it seems to me in any case that would sure not be the French system.)

Then, getting to the point alluded to above, C7 omits the root, E/G/Bb, so it can also serve as Gdim7.

And, while we're at it, getting back on topic, of course the extra row facilitates bass lines particularly in a minor vein. Simple counterbass minor 3rd, or for example in the rendition I know of Säkkijärven Polka (hope I spelled that right) there's a switch from Am to Gm with a bass line leading to it C Bb A (G.) Bb's right there, with a 3/3, but with the 2/4 system favored by people who don't really care so much about doing things with the bass, it's a long way from Bb to A.