Does Free-Bass hinder interest/development in the Stradella?

[BobM]

I've done my spending on accordions but I wouldn't have minded having a standard Stradella system, plus a flat counterbass row as well, just to make chromatics easier.

What key are you playing Säkkijärven Polka in? Most versions on YT seem to be in Cmin.

BobM.

 

[donn]

What key are you playing Säkkijärven Polka in? Most versions on YT seem to be in Cmin.

Sure, could do it there. A minor and C minor are about the same on a chromatic system ... picked it up mostly from , so probably was C minor to start with, honestly now Im not sure which key Id do it in if I werent thinking about it.

By the way, it turns out that there exist piano accordions with the French 3/3 stradella that facilitate bass lines as in the above tune - heres an (ended) auction Paolo Soprani SUPER PAOLO, LMMMM, Dbl TC, French Style Accordion. (As opposed to C system CBAs, where it is I think fairly common in France and Portugal.) The mushroom bass buttons are a clue, though I suppose not absolute proof.

 

[BobM]

A song that wouldn't be the same without it's Diminished chords is the middle 8 of September Song by Kurt Weill.

Eb6 Eb6 Edim7 Edim7 Eb6 Eb6 Edim7 Bb/F.

 

[donn]

Hm... I think if I were doing that, on the accordion, some of the harmony would come from the right hand. You could find those 6s and dims in the result if you were looking for them - even though I might not hear them as such.

 

[BobM]

Hm... I think if I were doing that, on the accordion, some of the harmony would come from the right hand. You could find those 6s and dims in the result if you were looking for them - even though I might not hear them as such.

A good point because theres a bit of a misconception that all of the chord has to come from the left hand. When Im working with pianists and guitarists, Ive shown them a lot of the Bass/Chord/Chord combinations that we can find on the net etc, and when I ask them how they voice a particular chord, more often than not Itll be across two hands.

 

[donn]

Sure! but really what I was getting at, someone analyzed that tune's harmonic structure and came up with a series of chords, and I'm sure that analysis is perfectly defensible - but don't ask me how I'll voice that chord, because I may not have really bought the idea that the music is inherently chord structured. Except to the extent I'm using the left hand chord buttons for harmony.

 

[BobM]

I should have mentioned that this was also in response to question from Matt.

(For me, one burning question is, when do I use a diminished chord? The answer may be, never.) It would be great, though I appreciate no one has the time to do it. A teacher might have the incentive to do it though, in terms of reputation.

A song that wouldnt be the same without its Diminished chords is the middle 8 of September Song by Kurt Weill.

Eb6 Eb6 Edim7 Edim7 Eb6 Eb6 Edim7 Bb/F.

 

[Matt Butcher]

And I really appreciate everyone taking the time to help me. I was going to / and still will / feed back when I've been able to get my hands on a 120 bass. Thank you everybody, everyone is very generous with their time.

 

[Russ]

To me the stradella is the theoretically complicated system re the discussion of the diminished chord

The free bass is so easy and logical to go through chord forms, complex in that there are so many chords with their inversions

 

[BobM]

To me the stradella is the theoretically complicated system re the discussion of the diminished chord

Why?, in the September Song example above, the Diminished chord is easily accessed with minimal movement, is available with a choice of 2 bass notes, and with a choice of rhythms.

 

[BobM]

A song that wouldnt be the same without its Diminished chords is the middle 8 of September Song by Kurt Weill.

Eb6 Eb6 Edim7 Edim7 Eb6 Eb6 Edim7 Bb/F.

Oops, that should be Ebmin6, not Eb6..

 

[losthobos]

I find this whole conservatory / self learnt / stradella / free bass thing quite similar to language
I know plenty of people who've learnt language at school and could probably write a letter to the mayor that would be understood yet cannot stand at a bar with locals and chatter away aimlessly as easily as someone who cannot write a word but learnt to speak on the streets through necessity... Stradella for me is a perfectly adequate communication method... "the darling of the mob" as Robert Service may say

 

[Russ]

Hi Bob
I am only speaking of what is easier for me. I dont find one system better or worse than the other and respect both equally.
The diminished chord is equally easy on both stradella and FB.
For me forming ANY chord on the freebass is, like forming a chord on a piano keyboard, very straightforward note for note: maj and min 6, M7, dim, dim7, aug, sus, etc. I am also sure that a straddella player can play these with ease. but for me the stradella in its higher form seems very complicated.

 

[donn]

but for me the stradella in its higher form seems very complicated.

Well, yes, thats probably it in a nutshell. Like a learning curve - Stradellas would be low but rising steeply when the built in chords wont do, free bass would be steep at front but leveling off.

 

[simonking]

Donn's answer above leads me back to the original question: Free-bass doesn't hinder the development of Stradella - any free bass player will be able to manage Stradella playing quite easily. What DOES hinder development of the Stradella is the attitude of the player really - the Stradella is a victim of it's own success in a way - it's very easy to play a simple accompaniment that sounds 'OK', and many players will think it sounds fine and not bother going any further. They may even think that because a lot of people seem to play in this way, this must all that is possible, but it's not true - once you're willing to explore the possibilities and get all your fingers working, it's very versatile.

Free-bass is necessary in classical and modern music and can in fact be used very expressively in all type of music, but even complex Stradella playing is going to be easier than much free-bass stuff and can be just as effective or more so with the right kind of music, choice of register and some understanding and experimentation.

 

[BobM]

What DOES hinder development of the Stradella is the attitude of the player really - the Stradella is a victim of its own success in a way - its very easy to play a simple accompaniment that sounds OK, and many players will think it sounds fine and not bother going any further. They may even think that because a lot of people seem to play in this way, this must all that is possible, but its not true - once youre willing to explore the possibilities and get all your fingers working, its very versatile.

Simon, Good points, theres also not enough visual demonstrations of good Stradella playing, or conceptual ideas that can help all over the LH. My first one was when trying to learn LH scales was, Going Flat or Going Sharp, a slightly different concept from going up or down the fingerboard..

BobM.

 

[KLR]

What is the Stradella used for in conservatory music? I'd think that since any chord can be formed with the free bass why bother with the Stradella's presets. But manufacturers persist with building convertors instead of dedicated free bass instruments, despite the added cost/weight/complexity.

 

[debra]

What is the Stradella used for in conservatory music? Id think that since any chord can be formed with the free bass why bother with the Stradellas presets. But manufacturers persist with building convertors instead of dedicated free bass instruments, despite the added cost/weight/complexity.

Have a look at (and listen to) as an example. It starts with free bass but at 1:15 it changes to Stradella. Try what he does then on the free bass...
Also note that players who use the free bass often resort to the two rows of standard bass for quick access to low base notes to go with the higher notes they play on the free bass. If you only have free bass the distance from base notes to the higher notes you want in chords is often too large.

 

[KLR]

What is the Stradella used for in conservatory music? Id think that since any chord can be formed with the free bass why bother with the Stradellas presets. But manufacturers persist with building convertors instead of dedicated free bass instruments, despite the added cost/weight/complexity.

Have a look at (and listen to) as an example. It starts with free bass but at 1:15 it changes to Stradella. Try what he does then on the free bass...
Also note that players who use the free bass often resort to the two rows of standard bass for quick access to low base notes to go with the higher notes they play on the free bass. If you only have free bass the distance from base notes to the higher notes you want in chords is often too large.[/quote]

I figured they still needed the Stradella for bass-chord stuff, thanks for confirming my suspicions. I did bring this up once and found a video of a guy doing a good oom-pah with the free bass - it was more involved than that, note - but even so it looked like he was just settling for a 2 note chord.

And when I got into free bass accordions - I have a Guilietti transformer - I mulled over the idea of using the Stradella bass notes along with chords in the free bass, but decided that would just be too confusing. Looks like anything is possible! So Id be making chords in the LH C griff, getting notes in the Strad basses, and playing the piano keyboard. Naw, not confusing at all! :shock:

 

[JerryPH]

Old thread.

Does Free-Bass hinder interest/development in the Stradella?

As someone that did the conservatory thing and till today still owns a free bass instrument, the obvious answer is no, it does not hinder interest nor development in Stradella. For me, in my own experience, thats as simple as it gets.

I also would never say that one is better than the other, just like saying that a Corvette is better than a bus. While a Corvette goes fast, it cannot carry 40 people and while the bus can carry 40 people it does so excruciatingly slowly compared to a Corvette. They both accomplish different goals and attempting to compare them ends in a bit of a comedic result. The question should be... what do you want to do and what is the BEST tool for what you want?

My point is that they are similar, yet 2 different things. You cannot do a 4-octave run on Stradella, and though you can oom-pah your way on a free bass, its a lot harder In comparison. If you are blessed with the desire to play Free Bass, you will open yourself to a whole new world of possibilities.

On my blog I wrote a little bit about what happened to me the first time I heard a Free Bass accordion. To save a few seconds, Ill do a cut and paste from my blog:
It’s August of 1971 and I was at a point in my learnings where I discovered something called “Free Bass Accordions”, and was fascinated. The ability to play piano music was just so liberating in my mind. The ability to play full piano sheet music as well as having the ability to keep the standard Stradella bass was very exciting.

Nothing exploded that excitement into passion more than an off chance airing of a show on CBC radio of someone actually playing the Free Bass accordion… inside, my heart pounded hard with pleasure at hearing this and I quickly found a cassette recorder and recorded what I could of this performance. I played that piece of music over and over, never knowing the name of the song nor who played it and I dreamed of playing in this same way. I must have listened to that partial song a hundred times over before the cassette tape wore out…of course I had to play it for my parents and tell them all about it!

By that age, I was already quite accomplished as a junior accordionist with about 7 years of lessons (5 years of several hours of playing per day and 3 instructor led lessons per week on the Stradella system), but the Free Bass sound blew me out of the water. I was very comfortable on Stradella, but at least initially, learning Free Bass, adding it to the skillset was almost as challenging as learning button accordion on the right hand from scratch after years of playing the PA. However, for a 12-13 year old, there is no instilled limitation blocking you, and you learn very fast and it becomes part of you in a very short time, far faster than an adult moving from PA to button. Also, it is its own separate world, one that enhances and adds to the accordion experience, not differentiates from it.

The one thing that saddens me is the physical layout format that seems most predominant now. Having played and still playing a 185 bass setup, I cannot ever see myself wanting to play a converter system by choice. My fingers move from the top 3 rows dedicated to Free Bass to the Stradella and back effortlessly, no time lost switching registers. Now, granted, not many songs actually do this, but it is one of the reasons I kind of frown on converter systems, yet if anyone new wished to get into Free Bass now, there is a 99% chance they would be using a converter system.

I see it all as the BETA vs VHS war all over again. Even though the Betamax system was proven better quality, longer recording times and cheaper to produce, VHS had better marketing departments, won the market over and in the end, even VHS died a nice slow death when DVDs moved in. I am kind of eagerly awaiting the DVD version of Free Bass accordions, as IMHO, not even the Bayan accordions (most recent iteration of the Free Bass design), nor even the Roland V accordions (just a copy of the basic converter system), have reached a better system that supersedes what is currently out there.

An interesting bit of history indeed, something I was glad to have seen happen and live through.