Double Basson .

[Geoff de Limousin]

Whilst searching for a 4 voice CBA with an LMMH set up I keep coming across Double Basson versions ( LLMM) particularly with the latest versions from the big factories. This would appear to be a more popular set up in France than the LMMH, although I have not had the chance to try one and there does not appear to be much on Youtube .

Anybody here play one of these or can point to a known player who uses this voicing or have some comments ?

 

[maugein96]

Geoff,

These double basson accordions are becoming very popular, and are available in different combinations.

Most common one is one bank of bassoon reeds in the boite and the other outside it. There is also a version with one of the bassoon reeds tuned an octave lower and the other one normal, which I believe have been available for some time now. Apparently they are a handful to play when basson grave is selected on its own.

Paul De Bra highlighted a problem with the versions that have two bassoon banks of reeds tuned in unison. I posted a clip of a guy playing one in Antwerp, and he could hear one or two reeds which were out of tune, thereby spoiling the whole effect.

Apparently it is imperative that all of the bassoon reeds retain more or less perfect tuning for it all to work.

Here is the link to the clip I posted. I believe the store was raided not long after I posted the clip (wasnt me. sir!)



I couldnt detect the reeds that were out of tune, but Paul can. Personally I liked the sound, even though the sound quality wasnt brilliant, but Paul isnt too keen on them.

And another clip to what looks like the Siwa and Figli offices, where the concept of LL is (almost) explained.



Try and get a listen to the Piermaria Super Gala or Super Regent. Both of those are currently made LLMM

Mengascini F21 here. Captions will show when double bassoon register selected. Probably my favourite sounding new accordion, and would be my first choice if I won the lottery.

 

[nagant27]

Somewhere its been talked about this before on here, but the Art van Damme excelsiors were made with a bassoon in the chamber and a bassoon out of the chamber. Its truly a unique, cool, full sound when played together. The tuning is crucial, must be the same. I have a excelsiola 730 and its truly awesome. Its one of my favorite accoridons, and I have a few.

 

[debra]

I wonder what the true reason is for having the double L reeds. If you want strong low reeds it may be better to use a single strong reed than two weak ones, caused by not having enough room in the instrument (especially in the cassotto) for large reeds. I see it all the time in convertor instruments: the lowest note on the left hand and right hand side is the same but there is no reem for large enough reeds on the right hand side and as a result the bass reed is much more powerful than the treble reed at the same frequency. When half of the largest treble reed is weight it can only produce a weak sound.
Look at these large low reeds:
http://wwwis.win.tue.nl/~debra/photos/accordion-repair/slides/P7101591.jpg>

This was part of a repair job and you can tell the very low notes cannot produce a strong sound (and trust me, they dont). I do not consider using two L reeds to be a real solution... (never mind the missing leathers; they were put back on later)
Of course the double L reeds on the higher notes do offer a sound that cannot be replicated with stronger single L reeds. A friend of mine had an LLMM instrument (one L and M in cassotto and one outside) and it just didnt do it for me. (And for him it wasnt that great either. He ended up selling the instrument.)

 

[nagant27]

There is a certain "thickness" I find in the tone that sounds very full with both reeds simultaneously. I wouldn't use it all the time, but it is a nice choice to have. Also when playing its nice to switch between the chambered and non chambered bassoon reeds singley, it mixes it up without having to use the higher clarinet reeds. I like it when playing older standards.
When explaining not enough room in the chamber Paul, could they make an enlarged? chamber that could accommodate the size of the large reeds, or is this just not possible?

 

[maugein96]

Whilst these LLMM accordions are not exactly a "new invention", they do tend to appeal to the modern French/Belgian market. With more and more modern French accordionists now only featuring musette as part of a more diverse repertoire, if they feature musette at all, I for one am able to appreciate the extra scope that LL offers. These days I don't have the best of hearing, but am able to appreciate the double bassoon sound for what it is, especially when it is played higher up the keyboard.

It doesn't seem to be the case that LLMM boxes are the sole prerogative of jazz players either, and it appears that they are appreciated for that extra Bassoon boost they offer. I honestly don't know what I'd do with piccolo reeds, as I've never had any experience of them.

As much as I know very little about Art Van Damme, the sound he got from his accordion spoke for itself. There aren't many people these days who can claim to have made a decent living out of playing accordion. Jazz is maybe not the first choice of most accordionists, and is not really my bag either. However, when you hear sounds like that coming out of an accordion, IMHO you need to open your mind to the fact that the tuning and reed arrangements specified by world class players were done for a reason. I hate the sound of Scottish musette with a passion, but would never tell anybody that it wasn't an appropriate tuning for the accordion.

I might suggest it was though!

 

[debra]

...When explaining not enough room in the chamber Paul, could they make an enlarged? chamber that could accommodate the size of the large reeds, or is this just not possible?

Well, as the reeds are at a 90 degree angle with the cassotto, longer reeds means the body of the accordion becomes thicker. But all Italian instruments I have seen still have some room to spare between the reed block and the outer shell of the accordion. With some clever engineering I believe about 10mm can still be gained. And of course the reeds could also be made wider, which also increases the air flow.
But... there will never be enough room to fit a large bayan bass reed on a reed block in cassotto on the keyboard side. So it is always a compromise.
Its also a matter of cost. I used to play a 5 reed instrument, which is about 30mm thicker than the corresponding 4 reed instrument. It would be possible to fit a 4 reed instrument in the 5 reed sized case to have much larger reeds in the cassotto. No manufacturer does that because it would meen reengineering the keyboard mechanics (as the cassotto opening would yet again be in a different position than they are used to).
Oh well, every accordion is a compromise between sound, size, weight and of course price.

 

[Geoff de Limousin]

Many thanks to all for the information, tips and links.... hmmm ! So, for's and against's.... well, what would one expect...
Haven't I enough accordions... What!, who said that ? I'm thinking it would be nice if my next purchase had a different sound palette.... I have a small CBA for going out, a couple of noisy ones when needed with loads of Musette... now perhaps one with a warm tone for intimate home use....perhaps ?

 

[donn]

I'm guessing this won't be found in the latest versions from the factory, but my old French style accordion has a sort of emulated double bass, where the same reeds serve an octave-lower register. (Except for the very lowest octave, where that pseudo-register is simply the same as the normal L.) Uses a complex and delicate system of rods and levers that's apparently a repair nightmare, but it gives one a chance to gauge the merits of an octave bass. For me, those merits are negligible.

 

[debra]

The effect of double basson is sort-of present in some convertor instruments, on the bass side. Let me tell you, it is a pain to make them sound right. Both reeds need to have identical response, the valves of course also need respond the same, and the tuning needs to be perfect...
What I have seen are modifications to for instance the original Pigini Sirius bayan series, to disable one of the two L bass reeds through an additional register switch (an on-off lever actually). To me the bass sounds better with a single L bass reed than with both reeds. But that after-market switch is fiddly to say the least. (If it does not close completely the bass will sound awful.)
Still, as both reeds are on the same block and share the same pallet, a small error in tuning averages out due to sympathetic resonance. With an LLMM accordion that does not happen as one L is in cassotto and the other is not. There tuning differences will not average out. You will just hear tremolo.

 

[maugein96]

Many thanks to all for the information, tips and links.... hmmm ! So, fors and againsts.... well, what would one expect...
Havent I enough accordions... What!, who said that ? Im thinking it would be nice if my next purchase had a different sound palette.... I have a small CBA for going out, a couple of noisy ones when needed with loads of Musette... now perhaps one with a warm tone for intimate home use....perhaps ?

Geoff,

I havent really kept up to date much in the accordion world, but on the odd occasion when Ive dreamt about another accordion I go onto the internet and trawl through the French accordion stores, such as they are.

When I first encountered an advert for an LLMM I thought they had just made a misprint, until like yourself I kept finding more.

The main issues seem to be why have they suddenly become popular?, and how long will that popularity last?

The tuning issue that Paul mentions would be a major consideration for me, but am I right in thinking that with French boxes having the reeds pinned on leather/cork any dodgy reeds can be taken in and out in a very short space of time, whereas with an Italian box youre possibly heading for a few days in the waxworks, unless the offending reeds can be spot-tuned?

Jazz players have been using such set ups for quite a long time, and the modern French trend towards jazzy accordion sounds may be the reason LLMM are getting more common.

Funny that the ultra jazzy Cava Manouche LMM only has a single bank of bassoon reeds and no tone chamber (unless theyve changed the spec). With all those cables and tone/volume controls its hard to work out what youre listening to, but the caption identifies this as an acoustic Manouche model trying to look like an electric guitar.

Love the sound, but Id maybe need an hour or two on it to play those tunes like Eric Bouvelle.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...FB2B54ADEE74828B1CD3FB2B54ADEE748&FORM=WRVORC

It could be yours for 8,700 Euros brand new

 

[Geoff de Limousin]

Still, as both reeds are on the same block and share the same pallet, a small error in tuning averages out due to sympathetic resonance. With an LLMM accordion that does not happen as one L is in cassotto and the other is not. There tuning differences will not average out. You will just hear tremolo.

I recall one dealer describing the double basson sound of a Cavagnolo Vedette 10 as with a slight phasing.. cannot say if one was in and the other out of cassotto.
Most current adverts I have seen for LLMMs state that both Ls are in cassotto... so perhaps that is for the reasons you suggest Paul .

 

[debra]

Still, as both reeds are on the same block and share the same pallet, a small error in tuning averages out due to sympathetic resonance. With an LLMM accordion that does not happen as one L is in cassotto and the other is not. There tuning differences will not average out. You will just hear tremolo.

I recall one dealer describing the double basson sound of a Cavagnolo Vedette 10 as with a slight phasing.. cannot say if one was in and the other out of cassotto.
Most current adverts I have seen for LLMMs state that both Ls are in cassotto... so perhaps that is for the reasons you suggest Paul .

Right... come to think of it, my friend had both L reeds in cassotto, so slight errors in tuning should have been less of a problem due to sympathetic resonance, yet there were minor L reed tuning issues nonetheless.

 

[maugein96]

I recall one dealer describing the double basson sound of a Cavagnolo Vedette 10 as with a slight phasing.. cannot say if one was in and the other out of cassotto.
Most current adverts I have seen for LLMMs state that both Ls are in cassotto... so perhaps that is for the reasons you suggest Paul .

Geoff,

All current Vedette 10 models with LLMM configuration have both LL in the tone chamber. Dont know if it was different before, but theyre all like that now. I wouldnt be at all surprised if one bank of bassoon reeds was tuned a tad sharper than the other one, but Im not sure.

I see Cavagnolo are planning a complete revamp/relaunch of their digital boxes on 16th September, and only seem to have four acoustic instruments available off the shelf.

As a resident of France who will have seen a lot more French accordions and accessories than I have, can you maybe confirm that these are the auxiliary straps which go over the shoulders and under the armpits. They are listed in Cavagnolos catalogue, and I have seen one or two rather portly Belgian players wearing what appears to be the same thing. They always look as though they have been trussed up, but the straps must serve some purpose? Having been a member of the F.B.I. (Fat B......s International) for some years now I just wondered if they may be of some benefit to the larger player? I have a little Hohner Nova which I need to play at max strap extension, and its still too tight. These straps may be the answer for the odd occasion when I take the toy box out of its case so that I can check that nothing has fallen off it.

Alternatively I might just try using the Hohner straps under my armpits and securing both ends to the top of the instrument. I bought it on a whim and havent the heart to take my big hammer to it (yet).

https://cavagnolo.com/produit/courroies-belges/

 

[Geoff de Limousin]

I have a little Hohner Nova which I need to play at max strap extension, and its still too tight. These straps may be the answer for the odd occasion when I take the toy box out of its case so that I can check that nothing has fallen off it.

Alternatively I might just try using the Hohner straps under my armpits and securing both ends to the top of the instrument. I bought it on a whim and havent the heart to take my big hammer to it (yet).

https://cavagnolo.com/produit/courroies-belges/

John,

I have seen only one person use these strange crossover straps. It appears that the central clip attaches to the back of the accordion ... I think .

Sometimes it feels as if the smaller boxes need longer straps... and that is weird. Could you not move the strap bracket from the under side of the Nova and screw it, onto the back face ?</QUOTE>

 

[maugein96]

I have a little Hohner Nova which I need to play at max strap extension, and its still too tight. These straps may be the answer for the odd occasion when I take the toy box out of its case so that I can check that nothing has fallen off it.

Alternatively I might just try using the Hohner straps under my armpits and securing both ends to the top of the instrument. I bought it on a whim and havent the heart to take my big hammer to it (yet).

https://cavagnolo.com/produit/courroies-belges/

John,

I have seen only one person use these strange crossover straps. It appears that the central clip attaches to the back of the accordion ... I think .

Sometimes it feels as if the smaller boxes need longer straps... and that is weird. Could you not move the strap bracket from the under side of the Nova and screw it, onto the back face ?

Thanks Geoff,

Ive seen a few Belgians wearing the straps, but dont know how they are attached. I suppose I could move the Hohner bracket to an alternative position, or just take the straps off my semi redundant Marinucci and use them.

With the default Hohner straps the box is right up under my chin and the blood keeps running out of my fingers and numbing my hand. Serves me right for living in the land of deep fried chocolate bars, and chips with ice cream. They reckon that Scots are now the fattest people in Europe, and I wouldnt want to look out of place! Fact that Im 75% Irish should have made a difference, but it hasnt.

As my 19 year old granddaughter says, When I was a little girl I used to tell people that my grandad was a big grey man with fat hair, but now hes just a big fat man with no hair! (she has the Irish sense of humour).</QUOTE>

 

[Waldo]

I ran across a video of a band with accordion player, and when they finished and took their bows, the accordion guy just stood up, pulled his box from his chest and took the bow. It looked as if he was wearing a harness similar to the picture, and yes, it attached to the backside of the accordion with a quick release of some sort. Looked much more convenient for the performing types, easy on, easy off. Ill link to the vid if I can refind it. I may have bookmarked it.

EDIT: Found it! Go to 1:35:20 to see harness in action. Excellent band, too. Recommend watching the whole vid. great clarinet guy.


Waldo

 

[maugein96]

I ran across a video of a band with accordion player, and when they finished and took their bows, the accordion guy just stood up, pulled his box from his chest and took the bow. It looked as if he was wearing a harness similar to the picture, and yes, it attached to the backside of the accordion with a quick release of some sort. Looked much more convenient for the performing types, easy on, easy off. Ill link to the vid if I can refind it. I may have bookmarked it.

EDIT: Found it! Go to 1:35:20 to see harness in action. Excellent band, too. Recommend watching the whole vid. great clarinet guy.


Waldo

Thanks Waldo,

Havent listened to the band yet, but Mattia Schirosa, the accordionist, has a padded version of the courroies belges right enough. Looks like a spring clip on each side of the harness attaches to the accordion somewhere.

Seems they could even just attach to the top bracket of the accordion, but Im still not sure. At one time I would have said they were of an auxiliary nature, but your clip has disproved that theory. They are not a particularly cheap accessory, and Ive seen them on sale in French stores for 85 Euros, compared with a normal set of straps for about 50 Euros.

As always there will be for and against anything out of the ordinary, and Ill try and find more info about them.

Looks as though the band will be well worth a listen. Im not so sure about Klezmer music, but I know the clarinet is a major instrument, often the lead instrument in various Balkan styles.