Double tone chamber

[Elizabeth]

And another puzzlement is does light musette and or “fairly” dry tuning come in lmmm or lmmh?

Or lmm

 

[Dingo40]

Ooh thanks for all this! And along with your suggestion of fairly dry tuning, would cassotto or non cassotto be best with that?

I'd say cassotto wasn't even dreamt of when these maestros were in their prime!

 

[Dingo40]

does light musette and or “fairly” dry tuning come in lmmm or lmmh?

AFAK, LMMM is chiefly aimed at musette, even very wet musette, but instruments vary.
Dry tuning mostly has LMMH, LMH,, LLMM (special order ) but anything with a MM in it can be tuned as dry or wet as you like!

 

[Elizabeth]

AFAK, LMMM is chiefly aimed at musette, even very wet musette, but instruments vary.
Dry tuning mostly has LMMH, LMH,, LLMM (special order ) but anything with a MM in it can be tuned as dry or wet as you like!

Afak??
Oh, god, all these options are killing me, or making me crazy.
I just want something in a cool color..that i can pick up…

 

[Dingo40]

I just want something in a cool color..that i can pick up…

Very sensible!
I'd suggest the simper the better!

 

[Ventura]

Elizabeth said:
"What kind of tuning do you think goes best, or good, with scandinavian?"


well, you like to visit Seattle and go to the accordion shops, so i suggest you google

toby hanson scandahoovian

as he can help you with all your questions about what kind of Sound and Accordion
you would want for the Scandanavian sound

Toby is a great guy and fabulous musician, with tons of experience in
the accordion segment of the Northwest (he was an associate at Spano accordions,
a student of Gary Dahl, and like i noted, is Scandahooovian at heart. He is
familiar with everyone at Petosa and Diamond and knows their products too.
Catch one of his shows, and introduce yourself.. don't be shy !

Considering your posts over time, i can understand you must consider
your current and future physical limitations, so you can choose your ultimate
instrument that will service your needs WELL for the longest time possible,
and with minimum need for future repair

we have gotten well off the mark for this as you have been trying to learn and
understand the nuances of Musette and Tone Chambers, and whether those
fine points will be of importance ultimately, or have little difference in your world.

on background, there were a line of accordions in the 60's marketed to Women,
brand name was Coronet, and the marketing company contracted with
Excelsior to build them. The designs and colors available were not that different
from other Excelsior's, just thoughtfully "adjusted" towards the Feminine, but where
they differed from normal student line accordiana's was in the touch, and the reed-work.

these accordions were spec'd and set-up to play easily, draw and use air efficiently,
and sound great (all done without tone chambers) and they are sweet boxes if you can find one

there was a model of Tonaveri (that was the primary Pro brand Spano was Dealer for)
called the Tonaveri Ranger.. it is a stroller basically, LMM or LMH available with
ONLY the L (Bassoon) in the tone chamber.. slimmer, lighter, fabulous playability and tone.

watch in your Northwest area for a used one.. you might get lucky)

and in modern times, there was a 3/4 sized 41/120 PanCordion that was designed
by Faithe Deffner and Pigini to be the lightest weight LMMH model ever crafted
in it's size.. once in awhile you can spot one for sale.. they squeeze easily and sound great.
I had the pleasure to open one up and examine it closely when they were first introduced,
and as i own one of the legendary 41/120 LMMH Scandalli 3/4 size models, i could
compare the new "Apples" to the old "Apples"

and then of course you have all the new high priced options available to wonder
about.. but then you will likely only be able to afford ONE, which might work
if you choose perfectly the first time, but is not as much fun as doing like TOM and having a few...

good luck in your continued search.. never forget you will do YOUR best
on the BEST instrument.. how important is it to you to be the Best you can be ?

 

[OuijaBoard]

Well, by "Scandinavian," do you mean traditional folk music, or jazz as it tends to be played on accordion in Scandinavian combos? The examples here are all jazz standards, not Scandinavian music or "Scandi" roots/folk/trad. Yes, if you mean jazz, that warm, dry timbre is currently the favored thing, but not just by Scandinavian jazz accordionists. Other Euro or US jazz accordionists lean that way too. For that tone cassoto might not be absolutely required, but many of the serious players do tend to want and have it.

OTOH, here is a Norwegian ensemble playing some Scandinavian folk music, the gorgeous and beloved 3-part waltz titled "Bergrosa," by the great fiddler Sven Nyhus. This is at Sweden's annual Ransater festival of traditional Scandi music, with playing on the green all day, workshops in dance and music, and barn dances into the night. That is Sven Nyhus himself on fiddle with a wonderful CBA player. He may or may not have cassotto, but the idiom here is not the "warm, dry, muted" jazz or classical sound:

 

[OuijaBoard]

There has been jazz based on Scandinavian traditional folk music, but the examples I know of don't feature accordion. The Norwegian sax player/composer Jan Garbarek did a classic recording with Charlie Haden titled, um, "Folk Songs."

But my favorite is "Jazz spa Svenska," by the late Swedish jazz pianist/composer Jan Johansson," based on Swedish traditional music. Haunting and beautiful stuff. Another classic. He also did a similar recording involving Russian folk music, "Jazz pa Ryska."

Then there is the wondrous Finnish chromatic button accordionist and composer Maria Kalaniemi, who is or was a longtime principal faculty member in the folk music program at the Sibelius Academy. Her work tends to be a fusion of classical, jazz, and traditional Finn or Scandinavian. She's done many gorgeous recordings, and you can check out Kalaniemi and her accordion sound on the 'tube.

 

[OuijaBoard]

Personally, since you like a cool color and appearance and want something liftable, I'd say heck with the tone chambers and go for one of the 96-bass "olive ash" Scandallis at LB, available in LMMH or LMMM. The demos sound as warm as I'd need for jazz. I do see they're 34/96--that wouldn't bother me, but some might want more treble. Or . . . they might want . . . tone chambers.

 

[Elizabeth]

OuijaBoard,
You have certainlly shared with me a lot of information and experience and knowledge and ideas and insight! I really thank you.i have actually heard tony playa few times; once i even talked to him!
I will enjoy these samples and clips you sent me and mull over your ideas.
Yes i do want to be the best that i can be, and it wont be determined by a tone chamber.
Thank You!!

 

[Dingo40]

Hakon Swārd

 

[debra]

Let me briefly explain why the overtones of the reeds in accordions are somewhat nasty, and thus why people want to dampen them using a cassotto or sordino (where the cassotto also amplifies the base frequency of the notes whereas the sordino only dampens the overtones).
The reed tongue sits on one side of the reed plate. When air pressure makes the reed vibrate it is not the movement of the reed that we hear but it is the quickly changing air flow that makes the tone. While the reed's movement may more or less be like a sinus wave the air flow is not: when the reed tip moves further away from the reed plate a kinda half sinus wave forms. Then the reed tip dips into the hole in the reed plate and no air flows, causing a sudden stop in the airflow. Then, if you play loud enough, the reed tip comes out the other end of the hole and air flows again. The sound produced by a reed would be a nice mellow sinus wave if whe reed plate itself were infinitely thin. But the airflow stopping while the reed moves through the hole and temporarily stops the airflow causes a "flat spot" in the sound. This is not unlike the early transistor amplifiers with a B system (where up and down only one transistor worked and around the zero there was a brief interruption). They produced a distortion that is not completely dissimilar to the distortion produced by accordion reeds, a distortion that gets worse when the reed plate is thicker (relative to the reed size). This distortion is not very nice: it produces overtones that the cassotto and/or sordino tries to eliminate. That's why many accordion players like a cassotto.

 

[OuijaBoard]

OuijaBoard,
You have certainlly shared with me a lot of information and experience and knowledge and ideas and insight! I really thank you.i have actually heard tony playa few times; once i even talked to him!
I will enjoy these samples and clips you sent me and mull over your ideas.
Yes i do want to be the best that i can be, and it wont be determined by a tone chamber.
Thank You!!

I don't think I mentioned a "Tony," but if you mean you've heard "Toby" a few times, the mention of him was from another poster. The instances of his wonderful playing that I have heard were more in the robust polka or gameldans style, more like the sound of the player in the clip I posted of the "Bergrosa" waltz outdoors at the Swedish festival.

The softer, dry, warm sound of the Scandinavian jazz players that were posted is a different sound. Of course, some accordions will do that full spectrum of tones and timbres for a wide range of styles. In my region is a wonderful gameldans
player who can be an entire Swedish folk dance band on his big Bugari. But he studied for years with Frank Marocco, and can do the soft, dry jazz thing too, on the same instrument. I think this is the case with "Toby" and his accordion(s) also.

Good luck on your journey, and hoping you get a chance to try a good range of instruments to help get a feel for the best fit!

 

[Elizabeth]

I don't think I mentioned a "Tony," but if you mean you've heard "Toby" a few times, the mention of him was from another poster. The instances of his wonderful playing that I have heard were more in the robust polka or gameldans style, more like the sound of the player in the clip I posted of the "Bergrosa" waltz outdoors at the Swedish festival.

The softer, dry, warm sound of the Scandinavian jazz players that were posted is a different sound. Of course, some accordions will do that full spectrum of tones and timbres for a wide range of styles. In my region is a wonderful gameldans
player who can be an entire Swedish folk dance band on his big Bugari. But he studied for years with Frank Marocco, and can do the soft, dry jazz thing too, on the same instrument. I think this is the case with "Toby" and his accordion(s) also.

Good luck on your journey, and hoping you get a chance to try a good range of instruments to help get a feel for the best fit!

Oh whoops it was ventura that talked about Toby.
So sorry!
And thanks so much for your comments!!

 

[Elizabeth]

I don't think I mentioned a "Tony," but if you mean you've heard "Toby" a few times, the mention of him was from another poster. The instances of his wonderful playing that I have heard were more in the robust polka or gameldans style, more like the sound of the player in the clip I posted of the "Bergrosa" waltz outdoors at the Swedish festival.

The softer, dry, warm sound of the Scandinavian jazz players that were posted is a different sound. Of course, some accordions will do that full spectrum of tones and timbres for a wide range of styles. In my region is a wonderful gameldans
player who can be an entire Swedish folk dance band on his big Bugari. But he studied for years with Frank Marocco, and can do the soft, dry jazz thing too, on the same instrument. I think this is the case with "Toby" and his accordion(s) also.

Good luck on your journey, and hoping you get a chance to try a good range of instruments to help get a feel for the best fit!

Let me briefly explain why the overtones of the reeds in accordions are somewhat nasty, and thus why people want to dampen them using a cassotto or sordino (where the cassotto also amplifies the base frequency of the notes whereas the sordino only dampens the overtones).
The reed tongue sits on one side of the reed plate. When air pressure makes the reed vibrate it is not the movement of the reed that we hear but it is the quickly changing air flow that makes the tone. While the reed's movement may more or less be like a sinus wave the air flow is not: when the reed tip moves further away from the reed plate a kinda half sinus wave forms. Then the reed tip dips into the hole in the reed plate and no air flows, causing a sudden stop in the airflow. Then, if you play loud enough, the reed tip comes out the other end of the hole and air flows again. The sound produced by a reed would be a nice mellow sinus wave if whe reed plate itself were infinitely thin. But the airflow stopping while the reed moves through the hole and temporarily stops the airflow causes a "flat spot" in the sound. This is not unlike the early transistor amplifiers with a B system (where up and down only one transistor worked and around the zero there was a brief interruption). They produced a distortion that is not completely dissimilar to the distortion produced by accordion reeds, a distortion that gets worse when the reed plate is thicker (relative to the reed size). This distortion is not very nice: it produces overtones that the cassotto and/or sordino tries to eliminate. That's why many accordion players like a cassotto.

Thanks tor all this!
I assume you are familiar with the new blue star reeds? Or maybe they are not new? How do they, if they do, tie into what you were saying about thick or thin Reeds? Do they only come in cassoto boxes?

Off-topic maybe a little bit, we had a teacher up here who was 80, and one of the students had a very, very bright sounding accordion. He covered up his ears in pain, and winced and screeched.

 

[losthobos]

@Elizabeth
For what my sporadic opinion may be worth may I suggest you just pop along to your accordion dealer and try on as many boxes as you can and find the one that has the most ergonomic fit, feels like a joy to play and has a tone that resonates deeply with YOUR soul....
Wether someone else titles this as Cassotto, LMMM, phythagorisis rule, or whatever is totally irrelevant...
What rocks YOUR boat is the most important feature....
Belief in yourself and your own unique feelings and you'll enjoy your journey and develop a style....
Pontification serves no purpose...sure your tastes will change as you blossom... but the petals need to open first...
(And I have a non Cassotto box that I consider down home and another Cassotto that I consider more recital...) I can vaguely play both but the happiness I feel when I play as MYSELF bears no relationship to what others may consider to be the value of quality of my boxes...
Peace

 

[OuijaBoard]

Thanks tor all this!
I assume you are familiar with the new blue star reeds? Or maybe they are not new? How do they, if they do, tie into what you were saying about thick or thin Reeds? Do they only come in cassoto boxes?

Off-topic maybe a little bit, we had a teacher up here who was 80, and one of the students had a very, very bright sounding accordion. He covered up his ears in pain, and winced and screeched.

What's cover-your-ears bright in an accordion sound can have different tolerance points but also different source points for different listeners. For some a wide-tuned, very wet musette is "too bright," for others any tremolo at all is "too bright.". Between MM tremolo versus MMM tremolo some find one objectionable but not the other.

For other tastes, " too bright" resides in the overtones characteristic of free reed instruments as discussed by debra above. Especially when played boisterously on all cylinders with chordal voicing going on both sides at once. Some of us find this the sound of humanity's joy, see the films of the late documentarian Les Blank, or the fiction feature from Germany, "Schultze Gets the Blues." But for others this is ear-covering, execrable torture-- and when played this way for this type of musical use case, the haters are gonna hate whether the accordion has tone chambers or not.

Reed types themselves also can be heard as having different brightness quotients. Some dislike hand or TAM reeds because they find them "too bright" in the higher octaves. Among folk players you hear this sometimes from people who don't like the "Castagnari sound" of the premium reeds in many of their models.

 

[debra]

Thanks tor all this!
I assume you are familiar with the new blue star reeds? Or maybe they are not new? How do they, if they do, tie into what you were saying about thick or thin Reeds? Do they only come in cassoto boxes?

I am familiar with the existence of the new blue star reeds. They do not influence what I said, because it wasn't about thick or thin reeds but thick or thin reed plates. It's during the time that the reed tip travels from one side of the reed plate to the other side that no air is flowing and the sound wave flatlines for a brief moment. That causes the distortion we know from old class B amplifiers (and to avoid that distortion in amplifiers class AB was created that keeps a bit of current flowing around the "null").

 

[Dingo40]

...just pop along to your accordion dealer and try on as many boxes as you can ...

And, while you're about it, have someone play any serious prospects for you (before buying) so you can hear it as others will hear you!

 

[Pipemajor]

What kind of tuning do you think goes best, or good, with scandinavian?

Warmer, softer, drier; thats all beautiful when i hear it. But the brightness and clarity of non chambered, tor example, my zero zette b16 (i think it is) is joyful and pleasing and satisfying.
I think i want it all; or simply i cannot make up my mind, which causes me to seriously wonder whats wrong with me.

All the more reason to justify another accordion to yourself