Double tone chamber

[Elizabeth]

Why does one need or want double tone chamber? What kind of music, what kind of audience, makes that added expense and weight worth it? Does an audience of seniors at the nursing homes even notice?
And tuning! If you can only have three accordions, and you already have two nice musette ones..

 

[Tom]

When properly configured the double tone chamber imparts a sweet and mellow (apply own adjectives) tone which many people find truly awesome. It might help them play more, or better. The seniors won’t notice the difference. They will be more interested in your presence and whether you smile and talk to them. It is almost impossible to have only 3 accordions. Good luck to you!

 

[JerryPH]

Let's first do a little clarification.
What does a tone chamber or "Cassotto" do: It mellows out the sound, creates what I feel a higher quality sound, takes away that brittleness that some tones can have. It adds a distinct smoothness to the sound.

What is a double tone chamber? A double tone chamber does not mean you have 2 tone chambers in the accordion, it means you have two sets of REEDS in the ONE tone chamber. Basically the reeds are set at a 90 degree angle in relation to the other sets of reeds extending the "sound pathway" compared to the other reeds outside.

Kinds of music that are used with accordions with tone chambers... most "famous" earlier jazz musicians made the Cassotto famous. Classical music also seems to draw out nicer sound thanks to the tone chamber. Personal opinion for me is that anything you play on a tone chambered instrument just sounds a little better.

I have 4 accordions with Cassotto, 2 of them are double cassotto, and I would have to say that I lean heavily towards instruments with Cassotto over ones without it.

 

[jozz]

Does an audience of seniors at the nursing homes even notice?

seniors with hearing aids can benefit from mellower tones.... true story

 

[Ventura]

It is almost impossible to have only 3 accordions. Good luck to you!

this man speaks the TRUTH

 

[Ventura]

so Beth, it really is more about being personally inspired,
and then ones professionalism in general

by this i mean, any artist will do their best when they have an
instrument which can inspire them, and allow and even urge them
toward excellence

now i have one friend who truly prefers the sound and power
of a straight box, and he has bought and sold (mostly new ones)
damn near every brand and model of high end non-chambered
accordions in his pursuit of perfection. He also has a very unique
approach and perspective on Music and is an excellent and
compelling player. He is also a veteran of thousands of Gigs
and even taught accordion in a University setting for seveeral years

the second part has to do with the simple fact that many musicians
simply "phone it in" on run of the mill gigs or visits to the Nursing home..
and admittedly it takes some effort to play the monotonous Piano Bar
gig where the club management see's you as a necessary evil but never
wants your music to actually be noticeable, and not lose your musical soul.

Some of us, and i personally have enough professional audio equipment to
play a Stadium, never skimp on what we take to ANY gig, much less the
lowest critical event booked at a Nursing home. The expensive SHURE Mic's i
sing through come with me.. the PA system is the same as i would size for
a similar gig for the President, the Accordion(s) i choose to bring, and most Gigs
i always take at least 2, are the BEST CHOICE for the intended music, not the
ones i can more easily afford to possibly get damaged or stunk up.

as far as Audience, the simple fact is most of you, most people, lose upper
frequency hearing as they age.. most don't even notice it for decades as it is
so gradual, though for some of course there are events which caused
damage. This results in many different permutations of hearing, from
certain frequencies causing actual pain or reverberant noise to those
who simply lose distinction due to low frequency overload

the solution ? PA systems and equipment that give near perfect,
Studio Quality sound at all frequencies with crystal clarity and definition..
in MY case that usually means multiple point source speaker array's of
3 way tailored speaker selection that gives those with hearing challenges
THE BEST CHANCE TO ENJOY THE MUSIC even in a nursing home

does it take dedication and extra effort on our parts ?
yes
will we get more money because of it ?
probably not
will we have the satisfaction of knowing we did our BEST just
as we always strive to do ?
well, that is the real bottom line

so do we want to be chosen for Gabriels Heavenly Orchestra after
our days here are through ? well every gig we do is an audition for
the afterlife in a way.. so yes, cassotto can be quite necessary to many of us.

addendum: some of you already know, but for the rest, my Speaker systems
are mostly hand built, and components chosen by me, personally, with
crossovers also crafted specifically to take best advantage of the natural
response curves of the drivers. My most common builds have been using
15" JBL's or Altec's or Widows for the bottom, with 10" guitar type
mid-range and usually symmetrical squared Horn waveguides for the top end
with Titanium drivers.. some 4 way speakers with soft dome tweeters for
the smaller rooms.. i do have some smaller lighter but similar cabinets
as well as huge heavy split cabinet set-ups because having all 3 components
can make certain cabinets too heavy for words.. though i have begun to
replace a few older (ceramic) drivers with Neo.. thanking God my Altecs
were Alinco all along

 

[Walker]

Why does one need or want double tone chamber?

Non-cassotto construction: Lets an accordion speak clearly - it might be beautiful or it might not.

Cassotto construction: Enhances a beautifully toned accordion and improves an unpleasant sounding accordion**.

**If Cassotto ain't soothin' that toe-curling old groanbox, you could always turn to the "enthusiasts solution" - ram the grill full of cardboard.

 

[John M]

Ventura - I'm sure your custom speaker layout/designs sound superb.
What is your opinion on a "standard" speaker setup for an audience? Does a
"Point Source" speaker
......OR
A bass speaker power stand with a column style “Cylindrical Radiator” array (crossover frequency of 200- 400 Hz)
sound better for an audience -- or even in a reasonable size room (16' X 20')?

 

[tcabot]

First cassotto choice is usually reserved for L voice, so a double cassotto (two voices) gives you very, very nice combinations, like dry [M]M (one inside, one outside), or L[H], that makes H sound a bit softer (such accordions have been made, but they are less popular, as the value of having H in cassotto is somewhat questionable).
[LH] is certainly more pleasant than [L]H(outside).
[M]M is the staple of the bayan playing crowd, and produces terrific tones.

 

[Ventura]

hey John,

a lot of you modern Pro's have gone to the BOSE and other cylindrical
columns for the smooth and relatively equal sound dispersion over a
wide area.. certainly an improvement over Stereo cabs on stands
(unless you want your Leslie simulation to take priority)

the Bass is far less directional i think, and sometimes i even turn
the 15" toward a handy plaster corner instead of facing out..

i certainly cannot deny the improvement with these modern systems,
but for me i am old and set in my ways, though i have experimented
with small arrays and even have a chance to buy a couple dozen 5" neo
Celestion's for next to nothing, which gives me another Speaker
project i may never get around to doing, i will probably keep doing
it "my way" until the end

lately i have been building and re-furbing some different speaker
setups for my Nephew and Brother who are guitar rockers.. testing
different combinations of 12's and 10's and placement and baffles,
plus i still do the occasional rebuild of an old 1930's Radio cabinet
(when the unit is dead and not repairable) with the latest being
twin 10 Neo's plus a downward firing Sub powered by a Marshall head
and a sub amp module

 

[tcabot]

One thing to note is that I believe that cassotto not only suppresses some partials, making the timbre smoother, but it also amplifies other partials, so the sound transformation is quite noticeable. The cassotto sound projects very well and can be louder, than non-cassotto.
In contrast, other acoustic filters (various configurations of baffles made from various materials) only seem to suppress some harmonics, but don't appear to contribute to amplification or better clarity.

 

[John M]

hey John,

a lot of you modern Pro's have gone to the BOSE and other cylindrical
columns for the smooth and relatively equal sound dispersion over a
wide area.. certainly an improvement over Stereo cabs on stands
(unless you want your Leslie simulation to take priority)

the Bass is far less directional i think, and sometimes i even turn
the 15" toward a handy plaster corner instead of facing out..

i certainly cannot deny the improvement with these modern systems,
but for me i am old and set in my ways, though i have experimented
with small arrays and even have a chance to buy a couple dozen 5" neo
Celestion's for next to nothing, which gives me another Speaker
project i may never get around to doing, i will probably keep doing
it "my way" until the end

lately i have been building and re-furbing some different speaker
setups for my Nephew and Brother who are guitar rockers.. testing
different combinations of 12's and 10's and placement and baffles,
plus i still do the occasional rebuild of an old 1930's Radio cabinet
(when the unit is dead and not repairable) with the latest being
twin 10 Neo's plus a downward firing Sub powered by a Marshall head
and a sub amp module

Hi Ventura,

I am certainly not a modern Pro. I am 81 now and have been a "recluse" relative to accordions for most of my life. About 5 years ago I picked up my old Rivoli (3/4 Ladies size) accordion from 1950. I had it in a bad environment all those years. It sounded terrible with reeds not sounding and valves (leathers) that were curled up. I found an Excelsior 960 on Ebay in Chicago that I went to try out -- it was in excellent condition and I bought it.

I was always fascinated (mesmerized) by that "Hammond Sound" and bought a 1956 B3 with a Leslie 122. That was in 1965. My wife complained because she said it was the first piece of furniture we bought after we got married. I convinced her that the Hammond Co., with their superior wood shop (and craftsman), that the walnut finish on the B3 was superior to any piece of furniture we could buy. We bought furniture that she liked after I bought my B3. Honestly, no furniture we bought had the fine finish that was on the B3. It was the best looking piece of furniture in our living room.

The problem with the 400 lb. B3 and couple hundred pound Leslie was, it wasn't portable. When I found out about a Roland 8X with accordion sounds, organ section designed after a B3, and orchestral sounds in two separate memory locations, I was sold. Now my whole set up is portable and I can take it to locations for other people to enjoy the songs/sounds on the 8X. I have the 8X with a Bose bass speaker power stand/column array and a Neo Micro Vent 122 (Leslie 122 simulator, the size of a pack of cigarettes) that sounds great. What amazes me is the 180 degree sound dispersion from the speaker array. If you are in the audience, you can't tell where the sound is coming from -- it fills the room. I notice, I really need the speaker behind me. If the speaker is in front of me, all I hear is the bass -- I really don't hear what the lows and treble highs the audience hears.

 

[Ventura]

that is awesome and i am surprised it works as well as the gradual crossfading
from a stereo leslie simulation

that "Hammond sound" is such an icon to musicians and was a real
boon for early Cordovox players as the Lowrey organ basic tone
was sure rich and came close even with the little CVox leslie, though
no drawbars so only basic combinations.. but Ebb Tide and
Black Magic Woman and the Walter Wanderly stuff was all very
do-able on the C-Vox

my first MIDI accordion, i butchered a KORG c-3000 and put it in
an aluminum box with a MIDI kit and the drawbars sitting on top..
after that i had ORLA and then Viscount (Galanti) drawbar modules,
till finally i built the Virtual C-Vox with the Roland VK8M, which is of
course the fully fleshed out incarnation of the software in the FR8..
the saturation and chorusing and other stuff is live controllable too

i still have a lowly but lovable M3 Hammond in the Barn

yeah it is still fun to occasionally do a gig using ONLY organ tones

 

[danp76]

I have several chambered and non-chambered accordions. They are both nice and all sound a bit different. I like my non-chambered Cosmopolitans and my AA7, Panjet 45, but also like my chambered accordions too.

 

[96Bass]

addendum: some of you already know, but for the rest, my Speaker systems
are mostly hand built, and components chosen by me, personally, with
crossovers also crafted specifically to take best advantage of the natural
response curves of the drivers. My most common builds have been using
15" JBL's or Altec's or Widows for the bottom, with 10" guitar type
mid-range and usually symmetrical squared Horn waveguides for the top end
with Titanium drivers.. some 4 way speakers with soft dome tweeters for
the smaller rooms.. i do have some smaller lighter but similar cabinets
as well as huge heavy split cabinet set-ups because having all 3 components
can make certain cabinets too heavy for words.. though i have begun to
replace a few older (ceramic) drivers with Neo.. thanking God my Altecs
were Alinco all along

I'm in the camp that thinks the column style speakers with a companion subwoofer (such as the Bose L1 line) is a great system for the majority of accordion players, both reed accordions and electronic.
Danley Sound Labs is probably the leader in point source speaker technology. They make a vast array of cabinet sizes. The video below explains their "Synergy Horn" technology, combining multiple drivers into a single horn. The Jericho in the video is one of their larger cabinets. They also make small portable systems.

 

[losthobos]

Sorry to be slightly off topic but re Leslie/Rotary simulators has anyone tried one just via a microphone out from accordion (no midi)...thanks

 

[Elizabeth]

When properly configured the double tone chamber imparts a sweet and mellow (apply own adjectives) tone which many people find truly awesome. It might help them play more, or better. The seniors won’t notice the difference. They will be more interested in your presence and whether you smile and talk to them. It is almost impossible to have only 3 accordions. Good luck to you!

Thanks!!
Appreciate your reply.
The seniors are so grateful and appreciative, it just awes and overwhelms me. I’m so grateful for them.
You’re right. Its is very difficult to only have three!

 

[Elizabeth]

I have several chambered and non-chambered accordions. They are both nice and all sound a bit different. I like my non-chambered Cosmopolitans and my AA7, Panjet 45, but also like my chambered accordions too.

Thanks!
When i go in the store, i like them all! Thats why its so hard!

 

[Elizabeth]

One thing to note is that I believe that cassotto not only suppresses some partials, making the timbre smoother, but it also amplifies other partials, so the sound transformation is quite noticeable. The cassotto sound projects very well and can be louder, than non-cassotto.
In contrast, other acoustic filters (various configurations of baffles made from various materials) only seem to suppress some harmonics, but don't appear to contribute to amplification or better clarity.

Excellent useful information which i didnt know! Thanks so much! Being able to make louder sound without having to work my pathetic arms and shoulders would be a great thing.

 

[debra]

Excellent useful information which i didnt know! Thanks so much! Being able to make louder sound without having to work my pathetic arms and shoulders would be a great thing.

That's indeed what a cassotto does. I make recordings to illustrate my ensemble arrangements, so I often play with just the right hand and solo for each voice. When I process the recordings on the computer I can clearly see the "envelope" of the notes. The cassotto makes the sound louder, not just more mellow in tone. However, what I can also see is that in (almost) all accordions the first reed bank on the first reed block in cassotto (viewed from the outside) benefits clearly less from the cassotto than the reed banks deeper inside. I could always hear it (on a PA it's the black keys on the single M register) but the data proves it. This flaw explains why for instance jazz players often just play using a single L reed (and not the single M reed) and prefer an accordion that goes up to at least the high C, because what they really want is a nicer sounding M reed so they use L instead. On my button accordions I tend to do the same, because there too the M is not as nice as the L.
This argument might suggest that the sound of a non-cassotto accordion is more "even". Alas, on most non-cassotto accordions at least one reed block is too close to the keyboard, so the sound comes out from behind the register mechanism and is thus dampened a bit (and made more mellow) than the sound from the other reed blocks... This is most noticeable on a non-cassotto Giulietti because of the grille design with its large oval hole in an otherwise solid cover. The reed blocks that are where the hole is sound louder and sharper than the reed blocks that are behind the solid part of the grille.