Frequency of accordion tuning

[Big Squeezy Accordions]

Without some 'stretch' (to my ear) some accordions would/do sound out of tune, particularly in the high end.
The lack of stretch was particularly noticeable in older analogue keyboards where the whole keyboard was derived from just 12 notes.
This is an entry in Wikipedia on the subject of 'stretch' in the piano world:

Inharmonicity "stretches" harmonics beyond their theoretical frequencies, and higher harmonics are stretched proportionally more than lower. Thus, in our example of an octave, exactly matching the lowest common harmonic causes a slight amount of stretch, matching the next higher common harmonic causes a greater amount of stretch, and so on. If the interval is a double octave, exactly matching the upper note to the fourth harmonic of the lower complicates the tuning of that upper note with the one an octave below it.
Solving such dilemmas is at the heart of precise tuning by ear, and all solutions involve some stretching of the higher notes upward and the lower notes downward from their theoretical frequencies. In shorter pianos the wire stiffness in the bass register is proportionately high and therefore causes greater stretch; on larger concert grand pianos this effect is reduced. Online sources[2] suggest that the total amount of "stretch" over the full range of a small piano may be on the order of ±35 cents: this also appears in the empirical Railsback curve.

I don't know how you would stretch the higher notes on an accordion without causing beating in a multi-octave register. When I am tuning, I am trying to eliminate all beating from the LMH register. In the left hand one is playing 4-5 notes in different octaves per bass button, so the issue is even more pronounced. Pianos obviously do not have multi-octave registers, so it's less of an issue. Are you saying that some beating is desirable in the interest of stretch?

 

[debra]

Most German accordions are A440. Newer Italian ones also. It's not you but the other players who are out of tune if they are off-pitch.

Newer Italian accordions are by default tuned to whatever each manufacturer thinks most people want. Pigini and Victoria will tune to 442 unless asked to do something else. (Borsini used to do the same.) Bugari and some others will tune to 440 unless asked to do something else. Most groups of amateurs who know nothing about tuning suffer, because they end up with accordions that do not go together well and they may blame each other for being out of tune...
The reality of the music world is that amateurs playing together more often than not use 440 and professionals (concert musicians) use 442. Given this it would be best if all accordion manufacturers would give you 440 unless you ask for something else. Professionals know to ask for 442 and amateurs who know nothing would end up with 440 which is what they need. Sadly Pigini and Victoria think otherwise...

 

[Ikesaccordions]

I found a Hohner Golina II tuned to A=442. His chances of selling that accordion are for all intents and purposes near zero until they find a buyer that is clueless.

Are you serious? There's a good reason for A442. Unless you are trying to harmonize with a keyboard, which can't tune up, there would not seem to be a disadvantage, but a possible advantage, since many instruments sound better if tuned sharp. Even if the piano is in tune, which they often aren't there should not be an issue if everyone gets off their high horse about wanting to drone on and on and relish the boring harmonics.
The piano in these ensembles should just provide the percussion.

 

[Dingo40]

Uncertainty reigns supreme!

 

[colinm]

Uncertainty reigns supreme!

Are you sure?

 

[JerryPH]

Are you serious? There's a good reason for A442. Unless you are trying to harmonize with a keyboard, which can't tune up, there would not seem to be a disadvantage, but a possible advantage, since many instruments sound better if tuned sharp. Even if the piano is in tune, which they often aren't there should not be an issue if everyone gets off their high horse about wanting to drone on and on and relish the boring harmonics.
The piano in these ensembles should just provide the percussion.

If you play in a group of accordionists and everyone else is 440 and you are 442... guess who the odd duck is going to be. I'd never recommend an instrument tuned like this, unless you play with others that are tuned the same OR you play alone. Everyone is different, but I definitely can hear the difference, and its not pleasant.

 

[debra]

If you play in a group of accordionists and everyone else is 440 and you are 442... guess who the odd duck is going to be. I'd never recommend an instrument tuned like this, unless you play with others that are tuned the same OR you play alone. Everyone is different, but I definitely can hear the difference, and its not pleasant.

I wholeheartedly agree. I have a quintet where one player has 442 and everyone else 440 and we are so hoping that one player can save up enough money to buy another accordion that's tuned to 440 so that finally it will fit in. Many people try to downplay the importance of having the same tuning, but nothing anyone can say will change the fact that 440 and 442 just do not mix. The 442 stands out like a sore thumb!

 

[Ikesaccordions]

If you play in a group of accordionists and everyone else is 440 and you are 442... guess who the odd duck is going to be. I'd never recommend an instrument tuned like this, unless you play with others that are tuned the same OR you play alone. Everyone is different, but I definitely can hear the difference, and its not pleasant.

This is undoubtedly true; I was of course assuming we were talking about "normal" ensembles.

 

[Dingo40]

we were talking about "normal" ensembles

When in Rome, do as the Romans.
So, "Roman" ensemble!

 

[Ventura]

this has been such an interesting thread, and other sssociated threads
that have spun off regarding tunings.. stretching them squeeziing them
making them share a keyboard with an Organ as we had to do so
frequently with the CG5 Cordovox..
(you havn't heard frequency beating until you have tuned a Cordovox)

i just want to briefly mention that Ike has shown boldness and curiousity
in Tunings for decades now in the discussion groups, and also in real life
he has, as a repairman and tuner, been able to use and experiment with
eclectic tunings on real accordions, then try them on an unsuspecting
public through his frequent busking around the Metro area !
and occasional uploading of examples

one acordion i recall Ike working on and giviing it an unusual tuning was
discussed for awhile on the old RMMS.. it was a Scandalli from the 1920's
Scandalli Camerano Frassati Cunibertic with dual spindles..

and i will put ome final note in the discusion to mention that if this
is an area of intense interest to anyone, the first Rolands (FR7) and F7x
have the ability to actually micromanage their Tuning

from page 41 of the Manual:

1.3 this page contains two parameters. The first one allows you to
select the tuning system and the
second one to specify the fundamental/root of the key you want
to play in.
Type: Equal (Off), User 1, User 2, User 3, Arabic1,
Arabic2, Just Major, Just Minor, Pythagorean, MeanTone, Werckmeister, Kirnberger
Key: C, C#, D, Eb, E, F, F#, G, Ab, A, Bb, B

(you read that right.. you can actually craft your own "scale")
If the tuning system you
need is not among the factory settings, you can program it yourself
(see p. 41) and then select it here.

Equal (Off): This tuning divides each octave into 12
equal steps (intervals).

User 1~3: These settings refer to the tuning systems
programmed by yourself (or someone else)

and here are the stock alternative systems available to choose:

arabic 1 & 2: As the name implies, these two settings refer to Arabic tuning systems. Select “1” to
lower the E and B notes by a quarter tone (–50 cents).
“2” represents a scale where the E and A are tuned
down a quarter tone.

Just Major: This is a classical (western) tuning that
resolved the ambiguity of fifths and thirds. Quite
beautiful sonorities are produced with chords, but
the scale is unbalanced, so it is not well-suited for
melodies.

Just Minor: This is a Just scale for pieces in minor
keys.
(that might delight you D-minor people)

Pythagorean: This system was invented in ancient
Greece. It resolves the ambiguity of fourths and
fifths. Though thirds are somewhat imperfect, melodies sound clearer.
Mean-Tone: A temperament that adds some compromises to the Just temperament and facilitates
transposition.

Werckmeister: A combination of the Mean Tone and
Pythagorean temperaments, this tuning allows for
playing in any key.

Kirnberger: As a result of improvements made to the
Mean Tone and Just temperaments, it is relatively
tolerant towards transposition and can be used to
play in all keys.

so pick up an old Roland when you spot a bargain and have at it
if the curiousity of tuning burns inside you

so from the old Organs with their dual keyed accidentals.. (one for F# one for Gb)
and probably forever, the interest of the Accordion community on this sublect lives on !

 

[John M]

So is the "tuning" on an 8X, (where the FR7 tuning is not available) done with the 4 band equalizer?

 

[Ventura]

page 71 of the FR8 manual details the tuning settings..
they actualy have added more helpful information since the FR7 manuals

tuning is a global function, i do not know if it is included in the editor,
or if it is only through the onboard small window editing

 

[John M]

Thanks Ventura. I sure am learning a little more every day.

 

[Dingo40]

Oh boy!
It's a wonder any two instruments whatever can play together at all!

 

[Tom]

I always look sharp when I play with/for others but I'm really tuned up.

 

[JerryPH]

So is the "tuning" on an 8X, (where the FR7 tuning is not available) done with the 4 band equalizer?

No, an EQ won't change the tuning... but take a look at page 71 of the 8X manual:

 

[Ikesaccordions]

this has been such an interesting thread, and other sssociated threads
that have spun off regarding tunings.. stretching them squeeziing them
making them share a keyboard with an Organ as we had to do so
frequently with the CG5 Cordovox..
(you havn't heard frequency beating until you have tuned a Cordovox)

i just want to briefly mention that Ike has shown boldness and curiousity
in Tunings for decades now in the discussion groups, and also in real life
he has, as a repairman and tuner, been able to use and experiment with
eclectic tunings on real accordions, then try them on an unsuspecting
public through his frequent busking around the Metro area !
and occasional uploading of examples

one acordion i recall Ike working on and giviing it an unusual tuning was
discussed for awhile on the old RMMS.. it was a Scandalli from the 1920's
Scandalli Camerano Frassati Cunibertic with dual spindles..

and i will put ome final note in the discusion to mention that if this
is an area of intense interest to anyone, the first Rolands (FR7) and F7x
have the ability to actually micromanage their Tuning

from page 41 of the Manual:

1.3 this page contains two parameters. The first one allows you to
select the tuning system and the
second one to specify the fundamental/root of the key you want
to play in.
Type: Equal (Off), User 1, User 2, User 3, Arabic1,
Arabic2, Just Major, Just Minor, Pythagorean, MeanTone, Werckmeister, Kirnberger
Key: C, C#, D, Eb, E, F, F#, G, Ab, A, Bb, B

(you read that right.. you can actually craft your own "scale")
If the tuning system you
need is not among the factory settings, you can program it yourself
(see p. 41) and then select it here.

Equal (Off): This tuning divides each octave into 12
equal steps (intervals).

User 1~3: These settings refer to the tuning systems
programmed by yourself (or someone else)

and here are the stock alternative systems available to choose:

arabic 1 & 2: As the name implies, these two settings refer to Arabic tuning systems. Select “1” to
lower the E and B notes by a quarter tone (–50 cents).
“2” represents a scale where the E and A are tuned
down a quarter tone.

Just Major: This is a classical (western) tuning that
resolved the ambiguity of fifths and thirds. Quite
beautiful sonorities are produced with chords, but
the scale is unbalanced, so it is not well-suited for
melodies.

Just Minor: This is a Just scale for pieces in minor
keys.
(that might delight you D-minor people)

Pythagorean: This system was invented in ancient
Greece. It resolves the ambiguity of fourths and
fifths. Though thirds are somewhat imperfect, melodies sound clearer.
Mean-Tone: A temperament that adds some compromises to the Just temperament and facilitates
transposition.

Werckmeister: A combination of the Mean Tone and
Pythagorean temperaments, this tuning allows for
playing in any key.

Kirnberger: As a result of improvements made to the
Mean Tone and Just temperaments, it is relatively
tolerant towards transposition and can be used to
play in all keys.

so pick up an old Roland when you spot a bargain and have at it
if the curiousity of tuning burns inside you

so from the old Organs with their dual keyed accidentals.. (one for F# one for Gb)
and probably forever, the interest of the Accordion community on this sublect lives on !

Phil, You have described the various systems well. The old Scandalli you mentioned was stolen from me in Annapolis. I don't remeber discussing the tuning on RMMS, but I may have.
The other Scandalli i played a lot was a 4/5 LMMM with 2 palm switches, and to facilitate the French Musette tuning I made a spreadsheet and used an old Peterson Strobotuner, so I could check the sharp and flat tremolo notes against the straight reed set using the rheostat graduated in cents (there's another name for it) and the spreadsheet was converting hz into cts at the different frequencies. But that one was Equal Temperament.
I generally leave an accordion in the factory temperament unless it is mine I intend to use. I was using Bach "Billeter" well temperament (whatever that refers to) from the pre-set in my Strobe Emulator software on a 1920s Chicago accordion which I used more recently and (surprise!) it sounded good on Bach violin sonatas, but also good with old Polkas etc.
This is one reason I am amused when people discuss A 440 vs, A 442, as various notes of the scale are off from either..

 

[Ffingers]

Oh boy!
It's a wonder any two instruments whatever can play together at all!

Not even a couple of organs?

 

[losthobos]

Let's see how wild and out of tune it sounds when you add the vocalist

 

[boxplayer4000]

Regarding the basic tuning pitch I believe it is too easy to over theorise.
Any accordion with reeds set in tremolo/musette fashion is basically ‘out of tune’ (and we like it!).
Claims that an accordion is set at 440 or 442 etc. would be hard to prove in practice as a quick check would typically show that +/- 2 cents (at least) was not unusual and this could vary again depending on how the bellows were used.
(4 cents is about 1 Hz at 440Hz)
Big Squeezy Accordions is worried that ‘stretch’ would raise beats in the higher LMH reeds but I find stretching the L and H reeds, as well, in the tuning process can get round this problem. It must be true that playing the melody in the ‘stretch’ area can cause a conflict with the basses. This effect is minimised (barely noticeable I think) because the time it takes to play a typical note is probably a fraction of a second while the beat rate of the LMH reeds have barely time to get started or be noticeable.
Just for the sake of discussion I believe the relationship of the 2/3/4 or 5 reeds, with each other, making up the one note is more important than whether, say, C4 is perfectly in tune with C5.
Regarding our ‘out of tune’ musette/tremolo accordions, for a while we had a rhythm pianist in the circuit who complained bitterly about the ‘out of tune’ accordions he played with. By day he was a full-time piano tuner used to the best pianos, Steinways etc. in the best venues. He proved to be a very accomplished accompanying pianist and when it became apparent that he could earn a comfortable fee he managed to contain his dislike of the offending accordions.