Internal mic comparison

[Geronimo]

The first of the new clips sounds better.

Ah, the wonders of the Internet. I find the treble on the second more alive and responding to bellows pressure. Again, unfortunately also responding more to the uneven pressure of the bass play which indeed also is worse in sound quality on the second clip. But scrapping the bass, I find the single reed in the second version more lively.

Now what? :?

 

[jozz]

Soundwise, I also consider it imprudent to squeeze other instruments between an accordion bass and an accordion treble. It might be nice for an idiomatic oom-pah passage/solo, but otherwise I dont think one is doing the accordion a favor by giving it too many roles in a band setting.

So Im just not sure how relevant these comparisons are. I consider it likely that going for the best treble sound, never mind the bass, is likely the best bet for a band situation.

Yes are you beginning to unravel my pattern or what? Its true, as I said, Im looking for most presence in the treble, because in the band setting (outside of duetting with Judith) I will be sitting in between drums, bass, keys, guitar and vocals.

But besides that any muddy-ness in the sound should be gone especially when Im also covering the bass side in a smaller setting. However I dont meetup with other accordionists much, to give me a guts honest opinion in this stuff. So here comes this forum in handy.

The first of the new clips sounds better.
I dont like the sound of the bass register in the second clip.
What Im also hearing (very clearly around halfway through the second clip) is that some F reed is out of tune.

Its hard to play in such a neutral way to really offer a clean comparison for feedback anyway, but its clear that you like Bugaris best (clip 1)

(thanks for pointing out the flat note)

Ah, the wonders of the Internet. I find the treble on the second more alive and responding to bellows pressure. Again, unfortunately also responding more to the uneven pressure of the bass play which indeed also is worse in sound quality on the second clip. But scrapping the bass, I find the single reed in the second version more lively.

Now what? :?

haha I love how this goes up for debate Clip 2 is the Hohner

which single reed? the M or the L?

 

[Geronimo]

The first of the new clips sounds better.

Its hard to play in such a neutral way to really offer a clean comparison for feedback anyway, but its clear that you like Bugaris best (clip 1)

Ah, the wonders of the Internet. I find the treble on the second more alive and responding to bellows pressure. Again, unfortunately also responding more to the uneven pressure of the bass play which indeed also is worse in sound quality on the second clip. But scrapping the bass, I find the single reed in the second version more lively.

Now what? :?

haha I love how this goes up for debate Clip 2 is the Hohner

which single reed? the M or the L?

Uh, they were different? Ill check. There might be indeed a big I own brand $x and I like its sound (though Paul also has a high-quality Hohner built by Excelsior in addition to his Bugari) involved here: my own main instrument has only a single almost-cassotto on the L reed. M, MM and MMM are all straight-out. On the infamous Turks Fruit recording I dont use M on its own, mainly LM interspersed with some L (a very fluty cassotto-like sound at the recording angle I use), and isolated passages using MMM, MM, and LMMM. But M is actually the expressive single-reed setting. I need to use LM on the main passages for standing out properly over the bass, and then L just is a stronger change in character, so I forego use of M (I used it in the first variants I think but it didnt work as well).

Long story short: even if I dont get to use it everywhere, I do like the open sound of a single non-cassotto reed. Which might favor your Hohner.

I dont actually know which is which reed, but I find the first half of the second sample more charming than the second half. The second also seems less consistent to me: it may have to do with the reed block distribution of black and white notes.

 

[jozz]

I dont actually know which is which reed, but I find the first half of the second sample more charming than the second half. The second also seems less consistent to me: it may have to do with the reed block distribution of black and white notes.

Clip 2 first half I start in M reed, on my middle A (not sure which octave number is that), second half I start on the E above that but in the L reed register and play up. This makes for an interesting comparison.

Good to have some confirmation that youre hearing what Im hearing live, that is, the single L of the Hohner is my least favorite.

 

[Geronimo]

Good to have some confirmation that youre hearing what Im hearing live, that is, the single L of the Hohner is my least favorite.

Well, the main question is not really which is the most accurate rendition but which sounds best. When I recorded with headphones, I found that the difference between L and M recorded from the side of my instrument was much more staggering than I actually heard. So I worked on making the part played with L articulated a lot more like a flute as well: got closer with the microphone in order to get more of a flap noise, made connected legato phrases with more distinct breath pauses between them and so on, at the same time using a different kind of expression on LM. Thats an additional dimension accessible only with microphoning.

If you find L sucks as a register, so what? You already have M as a single reed. Then focus on getting the best LM instead with your microphone placement. You dont need every register, just focus on microphoning the good ones.

 

[jozz]

What Im also hearing (very clearly around halfway through the second clip) is that some F reed is out of tune.

btw this F in this track? https://instaud.io/21Jh

can you give me an indication on what timestamp in the track? I have some difference in pitch between push and pull if I touch both treble Fs and root bass F, but I want to make sure this is what you mean :?:

 

[jozz]

If you find L sucks as a register, so what? You already have M as a single reed. Then focus on getting the best LM instead with your microphone placement. You dont need every register, just focus on microphoning the good ones.

Fair enough, but there is some nuance here:

I have basically two scenarios, one Im in a band and giving my internal output to the sound guy. Im playing RH only, basic chord play, second melodies and intros and solos to top of either old dutch/trad or some irish scottish rock. Most of the time I will take the MM register as it cuts nicely and gives the expected accordion sound. Hohner does the job.

Second scenario is the smaller theatre setting where both hands are used next to strings, vocals and sometimes keys. Now this is where I pictured the Bugari over the Hohner as it carries a more musical sound. These are intimate listening songs (people will have to be quiet), now I find myself selecting all registers which all sound nice and they dont have to cut that much either. Im really feeling this instrument (okay, maybe except the single M, true that).

Then when were starting to create this little show, and I get these MT-04s on the recording and its just not what Im hearing live. Sure I can up my game and try working around it with technique and souplesse but Im convinced I have to sort this out first. So Im on this quest for the right amplification for the instrument. Another consideration is I want to be wireless, so I need these internals to work (plus Bugari pre-drilled those pot meters on it, so Im stuck with them :mrgreen: )

 

[debra]

... There might be indeed a big I own brand $x and I like its sound (though Paul also has a high-quality Hohner built by Excelsior in addition to his Bugari) involved here: ...

Back in 1999 my wife and I tried a lot of accordions at the Frankfurter Musikmesse and we both agreed we liked the Bugari sound better than all others (including Hohner Morino, Pigini, Excelsior, Weltmeister, and I dont even remember which others). Clearly I still like the same sound best...
And yes I have an (Excelsior built) Hohner which I do like and which worked best in the orchestra where there are many Hohner Morinos. That sound is very different from the Hohner used by jozz.

 

[jozz]

Friends, I recently had some time and continued on my quest for presence and clarity on stage and in the mix.

So far I had only come so far and tested with the MT-06 treble mics + MT-04 bass mic on the Bugari 115, which to me was the best result yet. And now I had the chance to do the tinkering necessary for switching out the MT-06 bass mic for the MT-04 as well.

I did some base recordings to get an idea of the result, and although the internals are no match for external condensers, I must say Im fairly happy with them now.

Lastly, I put all the MT-04 stuff in the Concerto and stashed that in the attic.

Here are some results:

https://instaud.io/26fU (Bugari MT-06s, LM + accomp and single M melody)

https://instaud.io/26g8 (Concerto MT-04s, LM phrase)

https://instaud.io/26ga (Bugari MT-06s, LM phrase)

In my opinion the Concerto is pretty rough, although I liked it before, now it almost appears overdriven, but its still within recording limiters. Not very pretty.

The Bugari is getting there. Next is figuring out how to set the gain controls for best balance L+R.

 

[Eddy Yates]

Geronimo said, “There is a reason that the left accordion hand is the first to go in a band setting.“
Yeah, because you don’t want to get in a fist fight with the bass player! Rule number one with any keyboard player in a band: Just because you have two hands and ten fingers doesn’t mean that you should use them all the time.

 

[Eddy Yates]

bounciness: Id recommend using a back strap and practising pliable arm pressure so that the freshness of the bass accompaniment (which eats a lot of air when its buttons are pressed) does not get to change the bellows pressure as much (of course, the bellows will move in a stop-and-go fashion).

First, thanks to everyone who takes the time to educate us learners. Im late posting on a lot of these, but I find the information you impart to be very valuable, since theres not a teacher near me. I may have to start traveling for lessons.
For years I just played the right hand of my accordion, since I almost always played in groups and never had time to learn the left hand of the PA. This forum is my teacher for now. The term bounciness is new to me, but since I started playing with both hands, Ive tried to listen to the right and see if I can make the melody as smooth as possible. Im sure it would be helpful to see a video lesson on the pliable arm pressure youre talking about, Geronimo.
EDIT Ah....and of course, youve already done this, Geronimo. Thanks.

As far as the mic samples, I would only use my internal mics in a loud band context. If the stage is big, even with a band Id go back to a good external mic. It just seems to me that the box of the accordion is so cramped that internal mics would always be a not so good compromise, although Kimric Smythes developments look promising. Will try them when Im in Oakland.

 

[jozz]

As far as the mic samples, I would only use my internal mics in a loud band context. If the stage is big, even with a band Id go back to a good external mic. It just seems to me that the box of the accordion is so cramped that internal mics would always be a not so good compromise,

I agree. But it offers the most compact hassle free solution in combination with my wireless.

The idea of the sound test was to try to optimize it as much as possible. I get pretty good results.

 

[Eddy Yates]

Yes.
Here’s a good blog by Kimric Smythe on mics:
http://www.smythesaccordioncenter.com/the-accordion-blog

 

[JerryPH]

Funny, they all sound like the sound that comes out of my laptop... lol

The one thing that is hard to judge is what the real sound is, but the problem is that ultimately the sound is going to come out as good or as bad, as the sound coming out of the speakers or headphones that you are using to listen to the clips.

On top of that, mic systems that might not sound optimal can be compressed and equalized to sound better on whatever sound system or recording medium is used.

For example, #3 sounds the best on my Bose speakers, but #2 sounds the best on my Sennheiser headphones and #4 sounds the best on my laptop speakers.

 

[debra]

Yes.
Here’s a good blog by Kimric Smythe on mics:
http://www.smythesaccordioncenter.com/the-accordion-blog

Nice blog section indeed.
My old Crucianelli came with cristal mics (it is about 50 years old). I dont know whether they work. Everything but the mics themselves is oxidized so I am replacing the mics with a relatively inexpensive condensor mic system (5 RH and 1 LH). I chose just 1 LH mic as the old system was the same and installed below the bass mechanism in the playing orientation (near where the bass belt is fixed to the case).
It will be my first attempt at installing mics under the grille. I generally have good experience with the Microvox system that has mics on the outside of the grille so as to not require any invasive procedure done to the accordion.

 

[Eddy Yates]

I’ll be interested to hear how that goes, Paul. Stephen has got me cranked about making a Wurzels tribute band with
John Lydon and we’ll have to play really loud. :lol: {} :ch

 

[jozz]

For example, #3 sounds the best on my Bose speakers, but #2 sounds the best on my Sennheiser headphones and #4 sounds the best on my laptop speakers.

If the pickup is lacking in certain frequencies they wont be heard on any sound system. So we want the truest representation of the source. What happens in playback is not controllable by us anymore.

That said: most sound guys will put a 57 in front of you, and be happier than with builtins. But this limits movement on stage. Next option is condensor goosenecks and a sender pack. If I can get close enough to those with my builtins, Im happy. Id say the MT-06s are close.

 

[Eddy Yates]

I think your Bugari sounds really good by itself. After a million shows (exaggeration) I find the best ones are the ones where I could hear, I liked the instrument, and I had fun. Sound men are, uh, sound men. There’s a guy in my little town who is very good. Hope he stays!
Thanks for doing all the running on this. Very helpful.