New Giulietti Classic 127 or new Scandalli Super VI Extreme?

[Walker]

There's also the Excelsior itself. After talking to a professional, I saw that it was tuned to 442Hz and needed tunning. Then the question came: "maybe if I tune it to 440Hz it'll have the deeper, lower and velvety sound that I'm looking for?". It's a bet, however: maybe it'll be what I'm looking for, maybe not.

Some folk are highly strung when it comes to tuning... they're concert pitch!

I'm quite relaxed about it... Pigini and Scandalli both think 442Hz is good, so who am I to argue with them.

I'm not being overcharged by the seller. Nonetheless, it's an expensive accordion, and he isn't offering what I initially antecipated for my Excelsior. I'd need to sell the Excelsior by myself and then get the Classic 127.

The deal doesn't sound all-that to me. I'd give it a hard pass and find people who are willing to work with you, not against you. As the saying goes, you could always just; see what the Siwa seller says... on the sea shore.

 

[pitzelberger]

For what it's worth, I can say that I never felt "abandoned" by it. It can play smooth (as I prefer), and can get loud (which my neighboors LOVE but, for their dismay, I seldom do). Maybe the Classic 127 or the Extreme are more responsive, but I didn't note any difference (maybe because I don't know how to test it or what to look for).

For me the difference is most obvious, when playing softly in the lowest octave on L or in the highest octave on M. Reaching this regions on my Excelsiors you feel you have to add this bit of extra pressure to the bellows so that the notes still respond like in the other regions. This is less so on the Scandalli.

Another situation is when adding some vibrato to a note by shaking/flattering with your hands. On the Scandalli you feel like any motion directly transmitting into the sound, while on the excelsiors you need to apply a bit more force until it becomes noticeable (this might not just because of the reeds but also because they are more bulky/heavy).

So in some sense I would say the Scandalli gives you the impression of more some unity with your body allowing you to translate any emotion directly into sound.

But right, this doesn’t affect many normal playing situations (I am also no professional and often already happy if I can just hit the right notes), but if you do it intentionally, the difference can be clearly felt.

 

[pitzelberger]

There's also the Excelsior itself. After talking to a professional, I saw that it was tuned to 442Hz and needed tunning. Then the question came: "maybe if I tune it to 440Hz it'll have the deeper, lower and velvety sound that I'm looking for?"

If you don’t have absolute hearing (like most of us), I highly doubt that you will hear any difference when playing alone. You will only notice a difference when playing with other, but also then, there won’t be something like „more velvet“, you will be either just all in tune (i.e. when all tuned to the same frequency) or some of you might be out of tune.

 

[pitzelberger]

Keep your eyes peeled... I'm going for a Polaris in pearloid red

I have never heard of the Polaris. You mean one like that?

 

[Walker]

That's the original design from around 1950.

This is Pigini's new reinterpretation (but I'm asking for a red one):

POLARIS - Pigini Accordions

"Polaris, a contemporary re-interpretation of timeless elegance.Ranging from jazz concerts to world music, this accordion will light up the stage and enhance the mastery of the artist."

www.pigini.com

 

[Walker]

BTW: The famed reed maker Artigiana Voci has tuned up its moniker to "Nuova Artigiana Voci". And hold onto your accordions – the boss is Mr. Pigini! That's right, squeezing the bellows of Castelfidardo's manufacturing symphony with a flair for vertical integration that's so retro, it's cool again. Seems Mr. Pigini skipped the memo that the Golden Age wrapped up in '69!

 

[Fredson96]

For me the difference is most obvious, when playing softly in the lowest octave on L or in the highest octave on M. Reaching this regions on my Excelsiors you feel you have to add this bit of extra pressure to the bellows so that the notes still respond like in the other regions. This is less so on the Scandalli.

Another situation is when adding some vibrato to a note by shaking/flattering with your hands. On the Scandalli you feel like any motion directly transmitting into the sound, while on the excelsiors you need to apply a bit more force until it becomes noticeable (this might not just because of the reeds but also because they are more bulky/heavy).

So in some sense I would say the Scandalli gives you the impression of more some unity with your body allowing you to translate any emotion directly into sound.

But right, this doesn’t affect many normal playing situations (I am also no professional and often already happy if I can just hit the right notes), but if you do it intentionally, the difference can be clearly felt.

I see. I never paid attention this detail. Maybe it's because I don't have a second accordion, so I never noticed it. I'll try to be more attentive the next time I practice, to see if I can see this difference. I avoid adding vibrato by shaking my hands because I'm afraid of forcing the keyboard keys too much. When I do so, I shake the left hand in order to create the vibrato with the bellow. I believe I understand what you're saying, though: the Scandalli, by being more responsive, allows you to express yourself better while playing, without the need of putting extra bellow pressure on the instrument. It's the first time I've seen this comparison between Excelsior and Scandalli accordions. Very interesting nonetheless

 

[Fredson96]

If you don’t have absolute hearing (like most of us), I highly doubt that you will hear any difference when playing alone. You will only notice a difference when playing with other, but also then, there won’t be something like „more velvet“, you will be either just all in tune (i.e. when all tuned to the same frequency) or some of you might be out of tune.

Yep, I didn't. I've always felt that the Excelsior was a bit higher than what I'm used to, but I never imagined that it was tunned to 442Hz, since it's very rare in Brazil. When I spoke to the professional, he showed me another accordion tuned to 440Hz, and only then I could see the difference clearly. Plus, my Excelsior needs tunning regardless, so there's that. He told me that tunning the instrument to 440Hz would give it a deeper, more velvet sound. Apparently, the velvet sound part was an exageration but, if the sound gets deeper, than that's already huge.

Now, for me, the biggest dilemma for me are the questions I've regarding this specific Excelsior model. Did Excelsior, as many brands do, cut corners and expenses bacause it was thought for the Brazilian market? Or is this model as well made as any other from the 1990's Excelsior? Did they use quality wood for it? Are these Cagnoni reeds indeed good?

These questions would tell me if investing money into this Excelsior would be a good move, or if I should just sell it and get another accordion. After all, what's the point of investing in an instrument that isn't worth the hassle. I'd love to hear that these questions are unjustified, that I'm worrying about nothing substantial. I hope that this accordion is outstanding, made of quality wood, equiped with great reeds, and that it was indeed made with the notorious quality and excelence characteristic of the brand at the time. I've attached some more pics of it. Hopefully someone with experience and knowledge regarding Excelsior accordions will be able to tell based on them (although I know it might be difficult to assess details like this via pictures).

 

[Ventura]

ok then lets think this through once and for all

your concern: "Now, for me, the biggest dilemma"

and i need to see (a photo of) the shifts

the 9xx series was entirely built from scratch in the CEMEX factory
from raw materials by the Excelsior workforce

lower export series designed for the American market, for example,
were not part of the 9xx line, and were clearly indicated as separate models
with (usually) model numbers like 1480 and such, and they were never
suggested as being sister models, but were a level above the Accordiana
or Excelciola lines

the specialty lines like the AC and Symphony were equal to the
9xx line for build level while having their own special or unique
features/engineering/gold plating etc.

while they shared much, the biggest difference was common
shifts, keytops, buttons, and other mundane hardware that
could be purchased in bulk from the third party suppliers at that time,
and the reed-quality of a standard 14xx model, which typically
the reeds were referred to as "export" quality which meant generic,
unmarked, machine made (but obviously pretty damn good) reeds

these lines all sported teardrop shifts, as a dead giveaway,
and obviously need more "squeezing" than the pro models
however
special order pre-paid units could be had with any level of
reeds and tuning CEMEX had available, and so occasionally
you find a teardrop model with equivalent playability in
touch and tone that was ordered and imported through
ALAS or Castiglione

as far as if they officially said this was a sister model, then the
obvious/only difference to me would have been they specially treated the
wood and felts and leathers to resist the termites and other bugs
which were an intense problem for any product of this type
intended for the South American tropical marketplace, but would have
been a waste of money for other markets

 

[Ventura]

BTW: The famed reed maker Artigiana Voci has tuned up its moniker to "Nuova Artigiana Voci". And hold onto your accordions – the boss is Mr. Pigini! That's right, squeezing the bellows of Castelfidardo's manufacturing symphony with a flair for vertical integration that's so retro, it's cool again. Seems Mr. Pigini skipped the memo that the Golden Age wrapped up in '69!

yes, exactly, the Pigini factory is the most vertically integrated
accordion builder in the world today

they had the opportunity when they purchased CEMEX to
fully integrate all aspects, but due to space considerations and
of course investment return decisions, the Kiln was abandoned,
and that (for me) is the single most key factor in todays limits
upon any and all accordion builders.. being totally reliant upon
common suppliers for all raw materials in the woodshop,
as well as the ability to control over a long period of time the
stillness of specialty woodstocks

also, recent news suggests the separate electronics
department that WAS continued from CEMEX has now
been closed, and so any and all electronics components
from the factory are now also 3rd party engineering

 

[Frank Barocco]

It may be important to acknowledge that there usually is a psychological root to this situation. Even if hypothetically you already had the best accordion, still sometimes we feel we need something new. You could already have a phenomenal car, but from time to time we want a new experience, and we need to freshen up by exchanging it for a new one. We feel to urge to get a new car, a new accordion, move to a new city, etc.
The heart wants what it wants. There is always some degree of risk in that, but if that is what you want then you'll keep thinking about it until you get it.

 

[Fredson96]

ok then lets think this through once and for all

your concern: "Now, for me, the biggest dilemma"

and i need to see (a photo of) the shifts

the 9xx series was entirely built from scratch in the CEMEX factory
from raw materials by the Excelsior workforce

lower export series designed for the American market, for example,
were not part of the 9xx line, and were clearly indicated as separate models
with (usually) model numbers like 1480 and such, and they were never
suggested as being sister models, but were a level above the Accordiana
or Excelciola lines

the specialty lines like the AC and Symphony were equal to the
9xx line for build level while having their own special or unique
features/engineering/gold plating etc.

while they shared much, the biggest difference was common
shifts, keytops, buttons, and other mundane hardware that
could be purchased in bulk from the third party suppliers at that time,
and the reed-quality of a standard 14xx model, which typically
the reeds were referred to as "export" quality which meant generic,
unmarked, machine made (but obviously pretty damn good) reeds

these lines all sported teardrop shifts, as a dead giveaway,
and obviously need more "squeezing" than the pro models
however
special order pre-paid units could be had with any level of
reeds and tuning CEMEX had available, and so occasionally
you find a teardrop model with equivalent playability in
touch and tone that was ordered and imported through
ALAS or Castiglione

as far as if they officially said this was a sister model, then the
obvious/only difference to me would have been they specially treated the
wood and felts and leathers to resist the termites and other bugs
which were an intense problem for any product of this type
intended for the South American tropical marketplace, but would have
been a waste of money for other markets

I'll try to organize this message in a way that's makes it easier to read and reply to. Hopefully I'll succeed

Some additional information regarding this specific accordion:
- After inspection, I can confirm that it has a mano reads with "Cagnoni" marked in them;
- I can also confirm with 100% certainty that this specific accordion has the extended low bass from E feature, which can only be added if requested by the client;
- The name of this accordion's line is "Mod. 2000". However, this specific accordion is marked as a "Mod. 2000E R".

The most relevant info Excelsior was able to share with me regarding the "2000" line and this specific accordion:
- "the “2000” product line consisted of accordions specially produced for the Brazilian Market until about the end of 1990’s";
- "Based on the photos you sent us, we can tell you that this model should be a professional model with Cassotto and equipped with A MANO reeds";
- "We can just add that this model 2000E R was similar to model 940. Unfortunately we do not have any other information about it, nor brochures";
- "Regarding the extended low bass from E, we have no way to tell you if this accordion was equipped with it or not. Data sheet of the “2000” product line is no longer available. Generally speaking, we can tell you that sometimes it happens that customers require this special feature."

Now, the final questions (hopefully):

1) I'm unfamiliar with the term "shifts". What are they?
2) So, in short: the export lines of professional accordions had the overall quality of the 9xx line but, in order to cut costs, Excelsior used commonly found third-party hardware like buttons, keys, etc. and unmarked machine made reeds?
3) Is it safe to assume that, since this specific accordion has "E R" added to its name, the extended low bass from E feature and Cagnoni a mano reeds, it may fall in the "special order pre-paid units could be had with any level of reeds and tuning CEMEX had available" category?
4) Is it possible that this wood treatment for the South America region is why it's so hard to identify the specific wood used for this accordion?

I hope that these questions cover all the final points. I'll send the photo of the shifts as soon as I know what they're exactly o7

 

[Ventura]

the shifts are along the keyboard, and shift the reedsets in and out..
i don't know what you call them in Brazil ! are likely 10 to 13 on yours
teardrop is an obvious shape, if you had them you would have known

i doubt an export model would have a tone chamber and extended bass

2) So, in short: the export models shared the quality of the Excelsior "build"
but not the meticulous structure of a professional model body, which were
very intricate with premium materials in very specific usage for very specific
reasons. Also, the bass mechanism on the pro models was designed and
fabbricated in house.. it had specific extensions designed in as well
as being very robust and strong, and would not be the same mech used on
models which were built to a lower price point, and
for which the standard Stradella mech would have been quite enough

i would doubt they gave any thought to ways to cut costs on the 2000,
as they would have just sent the budget models to the South Am distributor
if they were working under severe pricep restrictions.. there is no reason to waste time
or engineering dumbing down a 940 when you already build lots of less expensive
models ready for delivery

yes i suppose the choices of woods that might be more naturally resistant
to infestation could have been one of the differences, but again not to save
money but just to make the best accordion for the special needs of your continent

i guess you would have to visit Castlefi and find someone stll alive who was
on the management team for CEMEX at that period and who knew the reasons...
Benjiamino was still around town until Polverini closed, but i would think he is
retired now... havn't seen his name pop up for a long time.. Marco is no longer
listed on the Pigini management roster..

 

[Fredson96]

the shifts are along the keyboard, and shift the reedsets in and out..
i don't know what you call them in Brazil ! are likely 10 to 13 on yours
teardrop is an obvious shape, if you had them you would have known

i doubt an export model would have a tone chamber and extended bass

2) So, in short: the export models shared the quality of the Excelsior "build"
but not the meticulous structure of a professional model body, which were
very intricate with premium materials in very specific usage for very specific
reasons. Also, the bass mechanism on the pro models was designed and
fabbricated in house.. it had specific extensions designed in as well
as being very robust and strong, and would not be the same mech used on
models which were built to a lower price point, and
for which the standard Stradella mech would have been quite enough

i would doubt they gave any thought to ways to cut costs on the 2000,
as they would have just sent the budget models to the South Am distributor
if they were working under severe pricep restrictions.. there is no reason to waste time
or engineering dumbing down a 940 when you already build lots of less expensive
models ready for delivery

yes i suppose the choices of woods that might be more naturally resistant
to infestation could have been one of the differences, but again not to save
money but just to make the best accordion for the special needs of your continent

i guess you would have to visit Castlefi and find someone stll alive who was
on the management team for CEMEX at that period and who knew the reasons...
Benjiamino was still around town until Polverini closed, but i would think he is
retired now... havn't seen his name pop up for a long time.. Marco is no longer
listed on the Pigini management roster..

Attached are the photos. Sorry, but I wasn't able to understand what a shifter is by your description ;-;

Since it's on the keyboard region, I took some pictures of it and inside the "cover". Hopefully they can be usefull

I'll read the rest of the message in a second, gotta get dinner done here )>'-')>

 

[Ventura]

yes, those black rectangular things with dots on them

yes, that is basically a 940

you are not going to be able to identify the more than
2 dozen different woods used in the manufacture unless
you find a real expert, or someone who worked there
back in the day.. does anyone employed in an accordion factory
today have the depth of knowledge in woodcraft or the access to
exotic woods or the financial strength to afford to bid and buy
those woods years ahead of using them ?

yeah i can only think of good reasons to change some things
on a 940 so it will survive and thrive in the tropic environment..

 

[Fredson96]

the shifts are along the keyboard, and shift the reedsets in and out..
i don't know what you call them in Brazil ! are likely 10 to 13 on yours
teardrop is an obvious shape, if you had them you would have known

i doubt an export model would have a tone chamber and extended bass

2) So, in short: the export models shared the quality of the Excelsior "build"
but not the meticulous structure of a professional model body, which were
very intricate with premium materials in very specific usage for very specific
reasons. Also, the bass mechanism on the pro models was designed and
fabbricated in house.. it had specific extensions designed in as well
as being very robust and strong, and would not be the same mech used on
models which were built to a lower price point, and
for which the standard Stradella mech would have been quite enough

i would doubt they gave any thought to ways to cut costs on the 2000,
as they would have just sent the budget models to the South Am distributor
if they were working under severe pricep restrictions.. there is no reason to waste time
or engineering dumbing down a 940 when you already build lots of less expensive
models ready for delivery

yes i suppose the choices of woods that might be more naturally resistant
to infestation could have been one of the differences, but again not to save
money but just to make the best accordion for the special needs of your continent

i guess you would have to visit Castlefi and find someone stll alive who was
on the management team for CEMEX at that period and who knew the reasons...
Benjiamino was still around town until Polverini closed, but i would think he is
retired now... havn't seen his name pop up for a long time.. Marco is no longer
listed on the Pigini management roster..

Sorry for the delay. The family dinner led to a conversation, only now I was able to sit down and read properly.

Indeed, it'd make no sense to include such features in an export model. Unfortunately, I don't have a picture of the bass mechanism (I regreat a lot not taking them when I could). It looked quite sturdy and well preserved to me (given that it had 30+ years of use and it was never fixed/cleaned/adjusted). Only a few bass buttons are a bit lower than the others, and there's a little air leakage in one of them (probably, we are only certain that there's a small leakage on the bass area). I'm not sure this means that the bass mechanism is good, but maybe it suggests that it is, at the very least, durable

I rekon it'd be unecessary to visit Castelfidardo only to get this information

I've read the most recent post, so I'll reply to it making references to some of the info in this one. Given all the info, I believe we've a somewhat solid guess on the line "2000"

 

[Fredson96]

yes, those black rectangular things with dots on them

yes, that is basically a 940

you are not going to be able to identify the more than
2 dozen different woods used in the manufacture unless
you find a real expert, or someone who worked there
back in the day.. does anyone employed in an accordion factory
today have the depth of knowledge in woodcraft or the access to
exotic woods or the financial strength to afford to bid and buy
those woods years ahead of using them ?

yeah i can only think of good reasons to change some things
on a 940 so it will survive and thrive in the tropic environment..

This is the first time I've seen the registers/switches being refered to as shifts. It seems that everytime I look into accordions I learn new terms/names

Given all the info collected and the sound analysis made by you, I believe that we can make an educated guess on the Mod. 2000:
1) It's basically the Mod. 940 addapted for the tropical environment in South America. Excelsior itself confirmed that it's a professional model very simmilar to the Mod. 940 and, as you said, it wouldn't make sense to spend time and effort engineering a downgraded version of it. At most, they may have used cheaper third-part components such as buttons and keys in order to reduce costs. However, since it's a professional model, it's somewhat safe to assume that it has the overall quality expected from such instruments from the 1990's Excelsior.
2) The wood used for it was probably choosen to better cope with termites and alike (hence why it looks so different from other accordions), and most likely is of the highest quality due to the arguments raised in item (1);
3) I've researched about the Cagnoni a mano reeds, and I've seen mostly good opinions about them. Alongside the arguments raised in item (1), I don't think I need to worry about them.

Sure, these are only educated guesses, but the logic behind them is sound and searching for the true facts is unfeasible. If they're correct, then this accordion is nothing less then a rare jewel that's a must keep: a Mod. 940 projected to endure my region's environment. I'd be the biggest silly goober if I didn't fix it and made it shine again. After all, I can save and get the Classic 127 in 2 years or so. But I'll probably never come across an Excelsior like this one ever again.

Do you believe that this is a fair conclusion, @Ventura?

 

[Ventura]

>> But I'll probably never come across an Excelsior like this one ever again if I sell it.

that is the true conclusion, and i am glad if our conversation
helped you to understand and believe in your Excelsior once again

if i came across a cream or white 940/2000 like yours i would be
very tempted to pick it up, and especially in your part of the world
where pro accordions are hard to find and expensive, a unique
and great looking box like this would be a dream come true for many..

as our friend Walker has shown from his reports on his visits
and research into modern factories and pro models, certainly
there are legitimate new choices available and the desire and skill
to build great accordions, if not equal to the craft of the Golden age,
is at least on an upward trajectory and as good "as possible" in 2024..

the last set of pics shows how the Excelsior pro action is a thing
of beauty, but also crafted to last forever.. it looks so STRONG and
precise and well designed and laid out.

 

[JerryPH]

Keep your eyes peeled... I'm going for a Polaris in pearloid red!

Looking forward to working on vids you've made using this new love of yours.

 

[Walker]

Looking forward to working on vids you've made using this new love of yours.

Jerry, you're a true diamond for sharing your time and talents. I'm all in for cranking out more music videos! Heads up, the Polaris is going to make a fashionably late entrance.

Last autumn, I snagged me a Scandalli BJP442 from their Conservatorio line, and it's been dodging the limelight ever since. It's high time it basked in the glory. And wow, does it command attention! Sporting a Gothic vibe that would make any accordion lover do a double-take. For the uninitiated, here's the Scandalli BJP442 right here:

BJP 442 - Scandalli Accordions

scandalli.com

Since the addition of my Scandalli Converter, my Pigini Converter is taking a dignified bow, making way for a vintage inspired Stradella bass accordion. I've been on a hunt, eyeing brands like Bugari, Petosa, Brandoni, Scandalli, Siwa & Figli, but it was the Pigini Polaris' design that reeled me in, a throwback from the late '40s, as the good @pitzelberger has showcased, here:​

I have never heard of the Polaris. You mean one like that?

Now, gather 'round, y'all, for the saga of the Polaris. The Pigini Polaris, strutting its stuff like a peacock on the catwalk, sprang from the mind of Padre Stefano Pigini—a priest moonlighting as an author and artist, channeling his inner Leonardo da Vinci with a divine flair for design. The head honcho at Pigini back in the day probably figured, "Who's got two thumbs and can whip up an accordion? My artsy cousin, that's who!" And just like that, the Polaris came to be. It's whispered that its chrome grille tips its hat to the gleaming American autos of the golden days—because let's face it, nothing croons Blue Moon of Kentucky quite like a shiny Cadillac. Right? The moniker 'Polaris,' also known as the North Star or Stella Maris (Star of the Sea), isn't merely for kicks; it's a brass-studded salute to the starry beacon of ancient mariners, gracing the grille. There's likely a treasure trove of symbolism tucked into those design elements too... including the teardrop motifs? In any case, it's a design that should stand the test of time. That's just what great accordions do...​