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Opinions on replacing bellows pins with wood screws or nails ?

isorry123

isorry123

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How dumb would it be to replace bellows pins with #2 or #4 wood screws?

I’m missing a few, and many are loose. I ordered a bellows pin “variety pack” from Ernest Deffner but who knows when that’ll arrive. And then the pins would just be mismatched.

If I were to just replace all pins with wood screws, I think it’d be more uniform and give a tighter seal.

Thoughts ? Or has anyone cut their own bellows pin from round head nails? Linoleum nails? Estucheon nails?
 
Wood screws are being used on occasion by manufacturers. Pigini for instance uses screws instead of bellow pins (in some accordions) for the two back positions on both the treble and bass side. (So the front of the accordion has 2 times 4 bellow pins and the back side has bellow pins on the edges and screws for the holes closer to the center.)
What I think is better than wood screws is to use bolts and nuts (with the nuts glued firmly in place on the inside). Russian bayans tend to have bolts, and Pigini for instance copied this when creating the Sirius bayan.
What I would do is to get a batch of new bellow pins of your favorite design. (For a few euro/dollar you can get a bag of perhaps 50 pins.) If a pin has a loose fit, use an eyedropper with water on the holes. This makes the wood swell (and not shrink back when the water evaporates, and thus the hole becomes smaller and the bellow pins will be a tighter fit.
 
debra said:
Wood screws are being used on occasion by manufacturers. Pigini for instance uses screws instead of bellow pins (in some accordions) for the two back positions on both the treble and bass side. (So the front of the accordion has 2 times 4 bellow pins and the back side has bellow pins on the edges and screws for the holes closer to the center.)
What I think is better than wood screws is to use bolts and nuts (with the nuts glued firmly in place on the inside). Russian bayans tend to have bolts, and Pigini for instance copied this when creating the Sirius bayan.
What I would do is to get a batch of new bellow pins of your favorite design. (For a few euro/dollar you can get a bag of perhaps 50 pins.) If a pin has a loose fit, use an eyedropper with water on the holes. This makes the wood swell (and not shrink back when the water evaporates, and thus the hole becomes smaller and the bellow pins will be a tighter fit.
Click to expand...
Yeah I saw you recommend a drop of water in the past. I suppose this makes sense, just standardize all my pins to a type
 
Could be made to work- some very old instruments use screws, but there's a reason why pins are normally used.

(Mr DeBras - wildly more familiar with accordion models of the last half century than yours truly-points out that some new manufacturers and may Bayan manufacturers use screws- there you go- I stand corrected; "Ignorance is not bliss". The rest of my comments still hold water for most cases on plain Jane accordions though)(This comment added after my OP, and Mr DeBras' comment added while I was typing; you seemingly can't quote posts in edit mode hence normal text in parens)

The strong suit of screws is in being removable and then replaceable many times- pins/nails get loose. This is an issue when the fastener is primarily used to resist a vertical force- as in holding down something.

In the case of bellows pins the primary holding force is sideways. The press of the bellows frame against the sealing gasket provides (most of) the friction which holds the pins in. They do nor press down on the case to hold it against the side of the bellows frame as a screw would do. The air tight seal is effected by the sideways pressure of case against frame with the gasket between.

If you pins are loose because the holed have wallowed out you can tighten up the holes with a drop of water daubed on the inside of the frame holes- or just use a slightly larger pin.

That may not be a great solution as the pin may fit tightly in the hole but no longer do much to compress the sealing gasket.

The pins are frequently loose simply because the old gasket has squished flat over the years- meaning that there is no longer sideways pressure to hold the pins in. It may well be sealing marginally as well.

The fix is REALLY simple, fortunately enough. Buy some foam bellows gasket tape (cheap stuff and readily available), scrape off the old gasket carefully, apply the new tape carefully around the frame (it has an adhesive on one side- it really is "tape") and reassemble the accordion. You should have to squeeze a bit to get the pins to get in the holes which are now slightly to the side because of the thickness of the new gasket material.

Do not go crazy with super thick foam. it should compress fairly easily and if you got too thin or too thick foam just size up or down and redo. The stuff is cheap and you want to do it right.

Sorry for typos.
 
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isorry123 said:
Thoughts ? Or has anyone cut their own bellows pin from round head nails?
Click to expand...
I think, unless designed for it from the beginning, there's probably not enough thickness in the wood for screws to grip properly. Besides, frequent removal and replacement of screws tends to enlarge the screw hole, leaving you in a possibly worse situation than before?🤫
I like Debra's suggestion of machine bolts with fixed nuts, but it could be quite fiddly to retrofit?🤔
Then again, you may be able to shrink the original holes by judiciously applying something like a coating or two of, say PVA, glue to the inside of the holes with a cotton bud (and drying off before replacing the original bellows pins)?🤔
Although the soaking with drops of water is frequently proposed, I doubt its long term effectiveness.🤫
What about totally plugging the original pin holes in the bellows frame (possibly by simply glueing suitable pieces of wood on their inner side) and drilling suitably tighter new holes using the holes in the treble and bass boxes as a guide?🤫
Anyway, good luck with it!🙂
 
All good suggestions. I have two updates:

1) changing the bellows gasket solved a lot of my pin looseness. I’ve known about bad gasket for a while, I used window/AC gasket with self adhesive backing that i bought in bulk - way cheaper than “made in Italy” gaskets. The regular rolls are in variety of sizes and thicknesses at $5 per roll. The Italian variety was maybe $35? We’re getting robbed guys @ Henry “In the case of bellows pins the primary holding force is sideways. The press of the bellows frame against the sealing gasket provides (most of) the friction which holds the pins in.”

2) I ordered two sets of pins from strings and boxes to fill any missing pinsIMG_2203.jpeg
 
well i love those t-nuts, but on my speaker cabinet baffles !
and they are nicer than just screws into wood for backs of cabinets
that need removed from time to time

there are nuts with extrusions up the sides that you can press
into the correct sized hole in wood and they will hold pretty good,
i think this was the type used on Alex's Super 6 with extremely fine threads

in any case, other than bellows pins would require perfection in the gasket
thickness and levelness relative to the wood channel, so maybe ask yourself
if the frame of your accordion is that true before you switch methods/engineering
 
My old Frontalinis (mid-late '30s) use neat little countersunk screws that look very smart and don't protrude like pins do. The Hohner 12 bass that I've been talking about recently had standard pins, but they were rusty and bent and two were missing, so I replaced them with very small brass dome head wood screws. They fit perfectly, hold the box together very well, and have less of a tendency to catch on my clothing. So yes, you can replace pins with screws. I wouldn't recommend it on a Morino or a Super VI, but on a less valuable instrument it's certainly an option!
 
The way I deal with loose pins in the shop (assuming that the pin is the correct size) is to tale some super glue on a piece of wire and run it through the pin holes (frame and shell) and then blow the hole clear with a straw after a few seconds. After the glue has soaked into the wood and hardened after about 20 min you will find the hole to be a few 1000ths smaller. If it is too tight pass a drill bit small than the pin through the hole with your fingers and push it in and out like a reamer till you get a snug fit.
If the hole visably is oval from wear use some narrow 1,5mm strips of bag paper in the worn out oval area ,add super glue and push the pin in the hole (make sure it fits before applying the glue) let harden with pin in place (use one with good chrome) and tap free from inside to break pin loose if stuck. Hole will be round and a snug fit.
The super glue cant really stick to polished chrome, but you can rub it with auto wax to make it easier to extract.

Using reed wax on pin holes to snug up the pins makes it really hard to glue or repair the holes in the future since the wax will mess with any glue you use.
 
Superglue on a wire sparingly wiped inside the hole also works great for stripped out woodscrew holes. Let it harden and reinsert the screw- rethreads and shores up any disintegrating wood in the hole.

Some manufacturers use bronze/brass inserts in the wood frame machined to take snug but not tight fit for the pins. Should never wallow out though with the bumps and thumps associated with decades of use the inserts themselves can become loose and, of course, the gasket still compresses over the years.


PS Your do not want to go supergluing the pins in. Great in the very short run but a substantial pain to pull the pins when the time comes. One gentleman locally had done so, sought my assistance because he couldn't pull them, and much to my chagrin the celluloid on the area about the pin head pulled up with the pin when it was pulled. Smoothing/getting it to re-adhere in a cosmetically acceptable fashion was quite the pain.
 
Last edited:
kimric said:
The way I deal with loose pins in the shop (assuming that the pin is the correct size) is to tale some super glue on a piece of wire and run it through the pin holes (frame and shell) and then blow the hole clear with a straw after a few seconds. After the glue has soaked into the wood and hardened after about 20 min you will find the hole to be a few 1000ths smaller. ...
Click to expand...

I use super glue a lot on wood in general, often to strengthen holes and especially when tapping threads in wood. It's surprising how well the CA glue will strengthen threads, even in soft wood. I drill, apply CA once or twice to the inside of the hole, then when cured tap the hole, apply more CA on the threads, then run the tap through again. I don't know if that technique would be useful anywhere on an accordion but it's good for general wood working and woodturning.

BTW, to apply CA glue anywhere with precise control without making a mess there is nothing better than a fine capillary tip. I have several types but these are my favorite:
As they mention, "The tips are designed to dispense small amounts of adhesive for precise application to small or intricate surfaces. "

You put them directly on most CA bottle nozzles but I far prefer to use them on a pipette, like these:
I buy them by the box of 500 but they are available in smaller quantities. Draw up a ml or so of CA glue from the bottle, slip on the capillary tip, and the glue can be dispensed in micro-sized droplets or in a controlled stream, onto a surface, to apply to a crack, or to douse the inside of a hole.

Pipettes are also useful to apply almost any type of liquid, water, oil, solvents, disinfectants, alcohol, chemicals. On the farm we use them to apply medical-grade CA glue to treat minor cuts on animals not bad enough to require stitches.

JKJ
 
Getting stuck screws pins out is pretty easy if you touch a soldering iron to the head and let it heat up. A blob of solder on the tip of the iron speeds this up. Good for getting the arms out of the pallets where they glued them in with wood glue or liquid celluloid.
 
JKJ said:
I use super glue a lot on wood in general, often to strengthen holes and especially when tapping threads in wood. It's surprising how well the CA glue will strengthen threads, even in soft wood. I drill, apply CA once or twice to the inside of the hole, then when cured tap the hole, apply more CA on the threads, then run the tap through again. I don't know if that technique would be useful anywhere on an accordion but it's good for general wood working and woodturning.

BTW, to apply CA glue anywhere with precise control without making a mess there is nothing better than a fine capillary tip. I have several types but these are my favorite:
As they mention, "The tips are designed to dispense small amounts of adhesive for precise application to small or intricate surfaces. "

You put them directly on most CA bottle nozzles but I far prefer to use them on a pipette, like these:
I buy them by the box of 500 but they are available in smaller quantities. Draw up a ml or so of CA glue from the bottle, slip on the capillary tip, and the glue can be dispensed in micro-sized droplets or in a controlled stream, onto a surface, to apply to a crack, or to douse the inside of a hole.

Pipettes are also useful to apply almost any type of liquid, water, oil, solvents, disinfectants, alcohol, chemicals. On the farm we use them to apply medical-grade CA glue to treat minor cuts on animals not bad enough to require stitches.

JKJ
Click to expand...
Those capillary tips are just what I was looking for, (different project) I had been using those little tooth flossing brushes. Thanks!
 
isorry123 said:
How ... would it be to replace bellows pins with ... wood screws?...
Click to expand...
isorry123 said:
Thoughts ?
Click to expand...
I was forced to implement this solution on my old accordion, which is my own project. The reason was prosaic, I already received this accordion without one bellows-pin. And a few others were already a bit labile in the hole. So I solved this problem with wood screws, under which I also bought anodized washers so that it corresponded a bit with the original pins, which also had washers (an old-fashioned solution). I replaced all the original pins + washers on the instrument (13 pieces):

pins and screws.jpg Result.JPG

I am satisfied with the result and have no problems.

Advantages of using screws:

  • reliably tight connection without air leakage
  • the possibility of repeated disassembly and assembly of the screw (e.g. during spot tuning) without the risk of increasing the clearance of the hole, as is the case with an ordinary cylindrical body of the pin.
  • there is no danger of scratching the celluloid near the pin due to careless use of the pliers

Disadvantages of screws:

  • manual unscrewing takes longer than a quick pull out of the pin
  • that's why I use a portable battery-powered screwdriver

From my point of view, it´s a safe, solid and long-term solution. ;)

Best regards, Vladimir
 
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henry d said:
(This comment added after my OP, and Mr DeBras' comment added while I was typing; you seemingly can't quote posts in edit mode hence normal text in parens)
Click to expand...
Just mark the part you want to quote, put the mouse over it until the hover text appears, then use "Reply". This will leave your edit dangling and quote stuff into a separate reply field at the bottom of the page. Hover that quote up completely with Ctrl-X (you can click anywhere in the reply and then type Ctrl-A in order to mark all of the reply and then cut it with Ctrl-X), then move back up on the page to your edit, click where you want it to appear and type Ctrl-V to insert the quote which is now formatted as a quote.

You can then finish your edit.

henry d said:
Or thank dak and follow his clear and helpful advice.
Click to expand...
I am not sure about "clear and helpful", but in this case the system appears to work straightforward to the degree where it is comparatively easy to trick it into doing one's bidding. Not readily obvious I'll admit, but it does the trick. You can even use it to reconstitute quotes within quotes (normal replies only quote one level).
 
Last edited:
disadvantage of screws:

the accordion body is not designed with flush mating surfaces side to side
in the bellows seating area, so screws could cause pressure in a way that
goes against the structural integrity as originally engineered/designed.
Unless the accordion BUILDER specifically designed the model with close tolerances
in this area that allow close fitted and mated surfaces, and intended it to
handle the sideways stress,

so you can all do what you want to your personal accordions, but if you ever sell it,
please advise the new owner that you changed some key element with possible
eventual negative consequences

just like there is a correct way to do AC wiring and connections in a house,
there are correct ways and materials in the construction and repair of
musical instruments. When you use the wrong materials or methods
on your Strad Violin, then someday in the future when a true Luthier
goes to loosen the seam on the soundboard to make a repair,
the instrument dies because the strange, non-standard rube Goldberg
service the instrument received in the past caused the correct method to
not only not work, but destroy the wood in the removal

even worse than not learning how to do things the right way,
posting incorrect one off guessing game methods for unsuspecting newbies
to read, making it sound like a tried and true approach, them
not knowing the information is not coming from hard earned time tested
methods is truly a disservice that then gets amplified and perpetuated by the internet.

not to say the individual things suggested or done in this thread are good
or bad, but i really am getting tired of the overall trend of repair advise
 
dak said:
ust mark the part you want to quote, put the mouse over it until the hover text appears, then use "Reply". This will leave your edit dangling and quote stuff into a separate reply field at the bottom of the page. Hover that quote up completely with Ctrl-X (you can click anywhere in the reply and then type Ctrl-A in order to mark all of the reply and then cut it with Ctrl-X), then move back up on the page to your edit, click where you want it to appear and type Ctrl-V to insert the quote which is now formatted as a quote.
Click to expand...
Alternatively; grow frustrated, get mad, knock semi useless reading glasses off inadvertantly, hurl keyboard to floor, jump up and down on it, take a deep breath, find band-aides to fix cut in foot from keyboard, ....

Or thank dak and follow his clear and helpful advice.
 
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