Reason behind omitting the diminished chord buttons?

[Morne]

I bet a quarter no one can demonstrate existence of a modern 80 bass with the diminished triad 7th.

Is that because youve only seen modern 80s with the standard voicing? Or because whats said here is novel?

 

[Morne]

I recorded my F7 in the combinations mentioned on this thread, in the following order:
- F7
- F7 + Ab7
- F7 + C
- F7 + G

It is with the 5 voice master register.

(I am aware that the bass has a slightly sore throat.)

 

[KLR]

A more common name for a "double diminished" chord is "flat 9th." It might be useful to go to YouTube and look up tutorials on how these chords are used, they're fundamental parts of jazz, for one thing, and aren't that convoluted. I always thought jazz sounded hideously daunting until I began to play the songs from fakebooks and realized that, underneath it all, these old songs are actually only slightly more complex than rock and roll or folk music, it's just that jazz musicians dress them up to the nth degree.

The puzzling thing about the accordion's diminished chord is its lack of a fifth, which, to me, is the whole point, the element without which it doesn't have the right flavor. This is a flatted fifth, to be precise - Gb in the key of C, say. For a Cdim I use the dim button on the Eb row. If I didn't have a dim row I'd use the Eb min button, you have Eb Gb Bb. Why the dim button produces the sixth of the scale I'm not sure, I hardly ever throw that in playing piano or guitar, regardless of its technically being part of a true diminished chord.

 

[donn]

I hear that F7 in the clip as the diminished triad 7th.

 

[BobM]

The practical, pragmatic, pianists, that I often work with all say the same thing when I discuss accordion bass with them; that they voice chords across both hands. They're not trying to squeeze every note of every chord into the left hand because it simply doesn't sound any good, there has to be space between the chord tones, otherwise they sound dark and muddy.

There's also a difference between a Dim and Dim7 chord; the C Dim chord on the Stradella has a note from the Dim7th chord, the A, so it's neither one thing nor the other, it's Dim-ish chord, but still performs it's function as an unstable passing chord, especially when using the b5th off the counterbass row.

Some cord and bass combinations sound good and some not so, I don't go chasing them unless they sound good, and not just because it's written on a part. The guitarist Joe Pass taught that in essence there's only really 4 chord types, Maj Min 7th and Dim, and that most other chords are just more complex variations of them.

Going back to the original topic, some musicians and performance styles have no need for Dim chords at all, and they can sound completely out of place, and for others they're a necessary smoothing, uplifting or jarring chord.

 

[Anyanka]

Its just that this chord construction business is a bit ahead of me right now.
For example, when I look up what a Cdim is I will find something like: C, Eb, Gb, A
Then that (translated) book comes along with double diminished 7th chord without the fifth: G, Bb, Db, Fb
And then it just gets a little confusing because I have not learnt these things (like the intervals in chords). I have a rudimentary understanding of some things, but I dont want to complicate my mind with this right now as Im not even playing diminished chords. That is what I meant earlier.

Im not looking for combinations so much as I am trying to find out why they make accordions without the dim row, although all this discussion did make some things clearer in terms of the latter (which I will summarise in a post below).

Slight detour from me: I actually cant cope with the advanced chord names, remembering how to make them etc - I understand the underlying principles but it takes me too long to work it out analytically. I experiment with chords, especially using various counter basses, and prefer to play by feel/intuition/experience rather than theory.

 

[donn]

The names are only coarsely descriptive anyway, as you can see from BobM's preceding post. We can say the passage calls for a Cm6 right here, but his piano player friend has a better idea than either of us exactly what notes that means, and maybe why.

My personal feeling about this is that chords are a cross-sectional analysis of something that's essentially longitudinal, by which I mean that everything in music has the same nature as the melody. We get used to chord harmonies that fit within this sequence-of-chord structure, when we play an instrument like the accordion that imposes that structure - but the diminished chord is a particularly artificial phenomenon created by that structure.

 

[BobM]

We can say the passage calls for a Cm6 right here, but his piano player friend has a better idea than either of us exactly what notes that means, and maybe why.

This a good example; the notes of a Cmin6 chord are C Eb G A, which is a minor chord plus the 6th. The most important fact is that its a minor chord but with the added flavour of the 6th degree of the scale. A pianist would not play those notes as they a spelled out on the LH alone apart from an effect, he/she might use..

Eb G A C

A C Eb G *

G A C Eb

C Eb G A, this would have to be in a higher octave to sound right.

For a 2 handed piano basic chord voicing, the min 3rd note, the Eb, could be at the top of the chord and the A, the 6th next to the G. There are a further 3 ways to voice this chord.

The essential chord is minor and the flavour is the 6th, I hear this as a sad/sweet chord and Id be looking to work the 6th into the RH somewhere rather than spoiling a rhythm part with combined chords, unless the min6 was really a min7b5 which is its darker inversion, played on the Stradella as Cmin/A *.

Donn, do you have an example of some chords?

 

[donn]

Well, what I'm saying is, that minor chord with the 6th didn't just come out of nowhere. It's a chord-instrument approximation to something that's happening at that point. Listen to the F7 clip above? Think about how those chords sound, standing alone like that. As far as I know (everyone agrees with this?) there's a Cdim and a Cmin7 there, but recognition is hard not just because of odd voicings, but also because in isolation, or next to each other, they aren't really music so much.

So ideally I would expect that the Cm6 voicing that would sound right to your piano playing friend, would arise out of the music, rather than something we could predict by knowing our minor 6ths.

Aside from sort of hinting at why some of these chords might not be worth their own row on the accordion, the accordion relevance of all of this is more about the bass notes - primary, counter, alternate, etc. - lots of musical potential there, not much of it predictable from the chord in isolation.

 

[BobM]

So ideally I would expect that the Cm6 voicing that would sound right to your piano playing friend, would arise out of the music, rather than something we could predict by knowing our minor 6ths.

Its a few things depending on the context, it could be because the 6th is in the melody, or because it it supports a harmony line running through the chord sequence, or as a final chord etc etc..

Its like a Maj7th chord has a over bright sound to it, its still a flavour of a Maj chord. But these more complex chords have evolved over time and weve got used to hearing them.

 

[KLR]

In the book obituary of Galla-Rinni:

His understanding of how the left hand mechanisms worked caused him to merely open up the instrument, cut off the offending 5th of the dominant and diminished seventh stradella chord buttons. Galla-Rini was thereby again paying homage to the rules of harmony and, in so doing, allowed all accordionists far greater opportunities for use of the stradella chords. He was an innovator but it was always for the benefit of the music.

The book also mentions that he was not alone in objecting to having the 5th in these chords; no source is given, perhaps one of the accordion journals of the time mentions this switchover.

 

[BobM]

Not having the 5th on the Stradella bass gives a few advantages overall; on the Dom7th it means that you can have a b5 in the bass, or sharp 5 in the treble. And on the Dim the "missing" b5th becomes the root anyway on a C, Csharp Dim (off the G row) Dmin7, G, turnaround. A wise decision..

 

[donn]

The book also mentions that he was not alone in objecting to having the 5th in these chords; no source is given, perhaps one of the accordion journals of the time mentions this switchover.

It also steers clear of the exact nature of the objection: ... which he felt would lead to incorrect harmonies. How so? Is it about the 7b5 Bob mentions? Im guessing thats not it, but just have no idea. Temperament? Which harmonies would be incorrect, and how?

 

[BobM]

The book also mentions that he was not alone in objecting to having the 5th in these chords; no source is given, perhaps one of the accordion journals of the time mentions this switchover.

It also steers clear of the exact nature of the objection: ... which he felt would lead to incorrect harmonies. How so? Is it about the 7b5 Bob mentions? Im guessing thats not it, but just have no idea. Temperament? Which harmonies would be incorrect, and how?[/quote]

Having the 5th on the 7th and Dim closes down opportunities to use these chords to their best effect.

His understanding of how the left hand mechanisms worked caused him to merely open up the instrument, cut off the offending 5th of the dominant and diminished seventh stradella chord buttons. Galla-Rini was thereby again paying homage to the rules of harmony and, in so doing, allowed all accordionists far greater opportunities for use of the stradella chords.

There it is..

 

[donn]

Yes, the rules of harmony. Maybe it's just as well I don't know them.

 

[Glenn]

From a layman's point of view, removing the 5TH makes the chords a little more ambiguous but does permit more mixing of harmonies without resorting to free bass combinations for these effects. You gain some and lose some. No free lunch I guess

 

[BobM]

From a laymans point of view, removing the 5TH makes the chords a little more ambiguous.

And thats exactly the point, take a E and an Bb, thats a tri-tone interval which may be heard initially as a dischord, add a C in the bass and it because a a C7, no 5th required. This leaves the 5th interval open for more exotic chords.

On the topic of missing notes i believe that some Trad/folk players remove the thirds from the LH, as do do many rock guitarists, to get rid of all that pesky harmony..

 

[donn]

And thats exactly the point, take a E and an Bb, thats a tri-tone interval which may be heard initially as a dischord, add a C in the bass and it because a a C7, no 5th required. This leaves the 5th interval open for more exotic chords.

Thats your point. Are you saying stuff like this is the rules of harmony to which Galla-Rini was supposed to have been paying homage? If I went through the possible combinations and came up with an equal number of fancy chords that could be patched together with 3/5/7 plus other buttons, would that rehabilitate 5 for the purpose of these rules?

 

[KLR]

On the topic of missing notes i believe that some Trad/folk players remove the thirds from the LH, as do do many rock guitarists, to get rid of all that pesky harmony..

Trad players do that, because, as one wag put it, it allows backers to accompany the music without actually listening. :lol: Playing all neutral chords has its own special flavor, I guess. Sounds more Celtic.

Rock guitarists started eschewing the 3rd when they began to play with heaps of distortion - 3rds sound a bit squirelly coming through a stack of amps. That, and the pioneers in this field were trying to put themselves across as evil. :twisted:

Now, before Galla-Rinni did the 7th and dim chords have 4 notes in them, or three? And I dont see the point in throwing out the 3rd from the dim chord - with the current setup you could just move the existing dim chords over 3 rows and youd have C-Eb-Gb for your C dim chord, which to my ear conveys what a dim chord should sound like. Youd still have A-C-Eb on hand, whatever thats good for. Perhaps having it on the C row is handy for some other harmonic maneuver.

 

[BobM]

Now, before Galla-Rinni did the 7th and dim chords have 4 notes in them, or three? And I dont see the point in throwing out the 3rd from the dim chord - with the current setup you could just move the existing dim chords over 3 rows and youd have C-Eb-Gb for your C dim chord, which to my ear conveys what a dim chord should sound like. Youd still have A-C-Eb on hand, whatever thats good for. Perhaps having it on the C row is handy for some other harmonic maneuver.

Having the Dim chord as is offers some nice sequences, but having never used any other system on the Accordion I dont feel that Im missing out on anything. It seems to lend itself to barbershop close harmony cadences, as in Good Evening Friends, and without checking it with my box right now, a nice fake James Bond rising 5th sequence.

And thats exactly the point, take a E and an Bb, thats a tri-tone interval which may be heard initially as a dischord, add a C in the bass and it because a a C7, no 5th required. This leaves the 5th interval open for more exotic chords.

Thats your point. Are you saying stuff like this is the rules of harmony to which Galla-Rini was supposed to have been paying homage? If I went through the possible combinations and came up with an equal number of fancy chords that could be patched together with 3/5/7 plus other buttons, would that rehabilitate 5 for the purpose of these rules?[/quote]

Donn, I wouldnt get hung up on whether its a 3 or 4 note chord, the Dim chord does it job, and this is the system thats in place and it seems to offer plenty of scope. Do you feel that the current system sounds wrong in some way?

Really putting the cat amongst the pigeons now, but a far more important topic for me is, why are some able accordionists so reluctant to use any bass note other that the Root? Depending on which bass note is chosen, the Dim chord is a 4 note Dim7. IMO this where the power of the Stradella lies, not chord plus chord combining, but Bass to chord combining.