Same problem on FR7, 7X, 8X! Crazy!

[CPezMusic]

Hi Guys!

Cory Pesaturo here, first time on here. I have encountered a problem on my Famous Flamed 7X that I modified, and have now seen Very similar issues with my old FR7, 2 other 7Xs, and an 8X in the months of using other peoples accordions. Totally Crazy. So heres the story, as Im searching like a Mad Man to find out WHAT in the World is going on. Plus considering theres almost No one in the world that knows all ins and outs of these accordions, its finding a needle in a heystack.

Around 1 year ago, at a MAJOR major gig playing for RedBull at a Formula 1 Race, my left hand basses (a mix of both the single notes and chords) began randomly sticking. Electronically sticking, not physically. I have seen on many Rolands in the past where you hit a note on the left hand, and it keeps playing UNTIL you hit the same note again. That you can mask while playing / improvising. But this was a situation where the note keeps paying until you shut the accordion off. Which is unmistakable when playing in Public. So I thought at first of course, it was just the left hand bass. I quickly went to my last remaining Roland contact and got another bass section (Not the whole left hand, just the bass board itself of course). The accordion had Zero problems for 6 months. Thought I fixed it.
Then, all of a sudden, it starts doing it again, at Another High end concert those 6 months later. I now figured it had to do with the humidity, as the accordion Always seemed to be doing this when it was raining or near water. But that didnt seem right. So I figured it was my bass panel pushing against some wires on the left hand. So I took the panel off to play a concert, and it worked. THought I had the problem somewhat figured. I didnt. Next someone said to change the wire that runs from the right to the left hand seeing as it moves a lot and could be damaged. I switched it from my Black 7X to my Flamed 7X. It worked for a week again, thought I fixed it. But no. So odd that everytime I did something totally random, it would work for a while.
When the accordion started doing this again after the internal wire change, THIS time.... it was a bigger issue. The right hand stuck as well. So instead of turning it off and on again to re-test, I hit Set to change sets and see if it would keep doing it. Normally it would so I was just doing the same test I normally would. The right hand stopped sticking and played normally, but the left hand, didnt work. Nothing. Turned the accordion off and on, and the left hand still didnt work. Its like I Shorted / Blew something when I clicked Set Over while the left hand was sticking.
I took the accordion to the best engineers I knew, computer / circuit board guys. We quickly figured out that the left hand was totally fine, also meaning the Bass board I bought was not necasarry, as my old bass board was fine. The problem.... existed somewhere in the Main circuit boards on the right hand. Now - While with these guys, and checking continuity on my fully working Black 7X to see the diffreences between that one and my now half-broken Flamed &X, all with a Voltmeter, something went wrong, and the Black one now had the SAME exact problem as the Flamed one. The Left Hand Switches and Bass notes didnt work, but the Speaker did (which makes sense because its on a different wire. Crazy Right!?!? I only presume the problem of the left hand notes and switches not working is Fully associated with it not working at all, but now the black one we somehow busted while working on it, but same problem in the end.
Now Cory Pesaturo has No 7Xs to play haha, and I HATE the 8X for a Multitude of reasons. So I borrowed a friends 8X for a Huge Concert I had with an orchestra, and would you believe it - THE BASSES STUCK!! Randomly, but it didnt persist. Kind of a 2nd level bad, but not 3rd. 1st level is where you can just hit the notes that are sticking and theyll stop then. Heres an example of that performance. Check out 5:09-5:11 in this video, and you will hear what it was doing Randomly all day. Note this was a NEW 8X!! -
THEN, because I couldnt borrow this guys accordion every other day, I pulled out my old FR7 to do some gigs while looking for a 7X to use for the time being. After playing the 7X for 2 weeks, BAM I one time just for 1 second, caught a bass chord I played sticking. Just a second, but it did it. So Now - Ive seen sticking problems on the 7, 7X and 8X!! But it gets better. Roxys Music, Rose specifically, the nicest person in the accordion world I think, gave me a deal of which I will not disclose, but basically Giving me a 7X for Free until I fix mine. She really is the Sweetest. So I just went out to LA for a week, and did tons of gigs, and came back to a concert last night here. In the 10 days Ive used this, the Right hand had the First level stickedge that I mentioned, where twice the right hand randomly stuck until I hit the note that was sticking again. And this is a Barely used 7X. So now, 3 7Xs, a 7, and an 8X... ALL WITH THIS Sticking Problem.

Does anyone... ANYONE... have Any Idea what this could be, so that we can Inform Roland, and also I can figure out WHAT I need to fix on my 2 Completely broken 7Xs. I will buy whoever figures this out Multiple 5 Star Dinner Meals and a Free Concert haha. Seriously though! I know many of the engineers in Italy that Created this, and even they with the language barrier cant quite figure it out.

Thanks Guys!

 

[CPezMusic]

I am 100% confident it is something on one of the mother boards, but I have looked with multiple engineers trying to see if it's the Fuse's on the Power Boards as Spook at Roland said, but it seems not to be that. It could be a voltage thing, varying voltage as Jim D. on here says. Don't know. Another erson said the only thing that is similar in all these issues is the Timer on the boards that controls how long a note goes, some "555 Timer" thing.

 

[JerryPH]

Hey Cory, nice to see you here... welcome.

Well I don't own a Roland V, but I am a member of the Roland Yahoo group for the 8X, and there are at least 1 or more people there with the same issue. Not surprising that you are not alone. If I recall correctly, it ended up being an IC board that was replaced for one person, and it was not cheap.

JimD, a guy that I would put in the same class that you hold Rose at, is a member here, and has worked on Roland V-Accordions in the past. He just might have an insight that others don't, start a conversation with him first (I see you started something, but sometimes, it takes a couple back and forths to hit the solution).

What kind of makes my eyes go wide isthat the Roland engineers said that they did not know what the issue was. If they cannot solve it, on their own product, well... a bit scarey.

Once resolved, please don't forget to let us know what the issue was and how you addressed it. That way if someone here buys a used 7X or 8X, they'd have a direction to go if they experienced the same problem. If it is a varying voltage thing, look for weak capacitors... but the only way to check those is to replace them. Generally caps last for a LONG time, but lower quality ones can fail in relatively short times. I suppose that this is why this one guy managed to get it resolved, they just changed the entire board?

Unless someone has some intimate internal knowledge of the 7X and 8X, this is one of those things that is extremely difficult to diagnose. :shock:

Thanks... and again, welcome to the forum! :ch

EDIT: You know I was thinking, and though I might be way off, Cory, you really put that keyboard through hell and back (lol). Could it be something right at the key switches or along the wiring between the keys and the main "motherboard"? I say this because new ones don't do it until after a while, and used ones that are not used that hard, end up showing this trait not long after some vigorous use. I'm totally speculating here, of course.

 

[Glenn]

Hi Cory, welcome to the forum (even if in such uncomfortable circumstances ).
I have had my 8x for about a year now and play it for on average 1 hour per day. I do not have a sticking note problem. I am however a rather gentle player as I have a psychological problem and believe beautiful machines have a soul and hence I am very respectful

But seriously, I have had the occasional missed note in the bass (the opposite problem ) which happens when I layer many sounds and play long, sustained patches.

In my years of experience with synthesisers, the sticking note occurs when the synth never receives it's off note command. With a decaying sound (Eg. Piano) this doesn't matter so much but an accordion sound is a different matter. What I am trying to say is that it could be a physical keyboard issue or even a software issue. In software, of there is a collision of commands (notes) they have to be prioritised and executed. If this goes wrong at times of stress on the software a hung note could result. It is however a bit odd that playing the note again does not fix it. This sounds defiantly like a software issue to me.

 

[JeffJetton]

In my years of experience with synthesisers, the sticking note occurs when the synth never receives its off note command.

That was my first thought too. Classic sign of the sound board not getting the Note Off command, although I have no idea what that would be in this case (hardware or software).

Didnt MIDI patch bays back in the day have panic buttons that would send an All Notes Off command across all 16 channels? Maybe they still do. Its been a long time since I used a rack of modules...

 

[acordiansam]

Just a couple thoughts sorry no fixes. It seems you travel a lot.

Could the box be bounced around in shipping?

Also you more than likely have you're own sound sets that you load in each box you use. Maybe sum thing in the set program that transfers from box to box that makes this happen?

I hope you find out before my 3x does it.

 

[Matt Butcher]

[I can't help with the query, I just wanted to say how much I enjoy your music]

 

[JIM D.]

Hi Cory: And welcome to the Forum.
I see you have neglected to mention that we have met at the Falcetti workshop last month and I found your dilemma requires parts replacement.
From the inspection of the 2 Rolands you brought and your explanation of using an aftermarket power supply, I felt you have subjected your "V" accordion models to excessive voltage and damaged the mother boards.
Now we only spent 3 hours on the 2 units you brought and without the aftermarket power supply you have used, I can only surmise that the problems you now have (with 3 unts) are the result of an aftermarket product that provided your units to excessive voltage.

 

[Thomas N]

I'm a professional accordionist. I have had my FR-8X for two years now and play probably an average of 2-3 hours a day. Most gigs are local. I have never shipped my accordion nor flown with it.

I have a similar playing style where I play with power and do not baby the instrument. The bellows really get a workout.

I've never had a single note stick on either the treble or bass sides in literally thousands of hours of playing.

Jim D's post has really helped me understand that there is some external influence involved here.

 

[JerryPH]

Interesting. Of course it is important to use the power supply that came originally in most cases, but let's (hypothetically), assume that the original power supply died, and looking at the specs, one found a power supply that was the same input and output voltage with the same amperage rating, would this be enough to cause this issue?

Cory, is the power supply that you used the same one in all cases or in any of the Roland V's that have displayed this issue, have one or more never even once been attached to anything but the original Roland power supplies that came with the accordions?

 

[CPezMusic]

Just got back from another trip in DC so I'll try to answer all these points. Thanks so Much Guys!

It ended up being an IC board that was replaced for one person, and it was not cheap.
- Yes, replacing parts is Hard to do, even with me who knows many insiders at Roland, AND it's extremely expensive IF you can find the parts. Considering 2 of my accordions are broke, and it's now a problem I am finding on ALL Roland's, we NEED to find the Exact problem. Because I think it's something simple.

JimD
- Yes, he's the person that introduced me on here. I never knew about it until him! Thanks Jim!

If the Roland Guys cannot solve it, on their own product, well... a bit scary.
- You just wait until 7's, 7X's and 8X's and others start getting old and start having mroe and more issues, and think about how 90% of the people that have them have NO IDEA about anything associated with electronics (me included). It's going to be a Complete and Utter S*** Show. Whomever becomes the expert with fixing ANY problem on these will become a very Very rich man.

Once resolved, please don't forget to let us know what the issue was and how you addressed it. That way if someone here buys a used 7X or 8X, they'd have a direction to go if they experienced the same problem.
- That's why I want to get the word out to the world. It's something that the world Needs to know, as considering I have seen this issue across the board of accordions, more and more people will find it.

You really put that keyboard through hell and back, what if it is that?
- Actually no. When you consider really hard players like Tony Lovello and Dick Contino, I am a Baby on it. I rarely have to play it at full volume, and my playing speed which everyone wonders how I have, is based off Barely playing the keys / buttons.

The sticking note could occur when the synth never receives it's off note command.
- This is an interesting idea. The opposite concerning the signal it gets.

Didn't MIDI patch bays back in the day have "panic buttons" that would send an All Notes Off command across all 16 channels?
- Anyone else have comments on this?

Could the box be bounced around in shipping? Or too many sets you input?
- Noooo no, when I travel with an accordion, it is ALWAYS with me on the plane. And remember that this is something that has occurred on all various accordions. Concerning inputting too many things; you may be surprised to know that 90% of the things I play are on stock settings and sets. There are a few reasons why I do this, but there really is not any "Cory Pesaturo pile of special sets" I use. Very little in that. So all of you can play what I play mostly! It's Just Practice!

Matt Butcher
- Thanks Matt!! And Thanks to All of you who said kind things about my playing. As I always say, I'm just trying. Trying to be Eddie Monteiro on the left hand, Petar Ralchev on Balkan, Charles Magnante on Classical, Tommy Gumina on improvisation speed, etc.etc..

From the inspection of the 2 Rolands you brought and your explanation of using an aftermarket power supply, I felt you have subjected your "V" accordion models to excessive voltage and damaged the mother boards.
- I neglected to mention that Jim because you guys were only a very small part of the entire story that has now gone on for a year, and are just 2 of the now 8 close friend engineers who have looked at the issue. But to comment on the subjecting too much power issue with the aftermarket Joe Recchia charger device....

Concerning the External Power Supply from my Buddy Joe Recchia that I use on just 1 of the accordions with this problem.
- I have used his external power charger for years and have never had an issue, nor have I heard of an issue from anyone else that uses them, but MOST of all, remember that only ONE of the accordions I've had issues with, has used his aftermarket charger. Although all of these things could be a power issue, Joe's device is not the issue. Though we are dealing with 2 somewhat separate issues (The across the gamete of Roland's issue with notes electronically sticking, and how 2 of my accordions currently don't do anything with the bass buttons OR switches, though speakers work on left hand)

 

[martin10]

I have a 3x and have not had this problem, but have taught MIDI and computer science for many years. Two thoughts )no idea of they are helpful).

First, you might try plugging the MIDI into software that captures the data. That should let you check if you are generating a Note Off command or not. If you are, then the sound synth is ignorng it (or not getting it). Very likely that Roland are not using note off commands but sending a second note on (same pitch) with a velocity of 0 (ie sending a "silent" note that overrides the playing sound). Good technical reason for doing this but not relevant here.

Second (and this is a very long shot, but ...). Many years ago I had a very early Mac computer. I thought I was going mad when it started typing by itself. Rushed into work (urgent project to complete), grabbed my offce machine, plugged it in, fine. A few minutes later it too started typng by tself!!!! I eventually discovered that I had borrowed an ioniser (advertised as perfect for environemnts with computers). Turned it off and the the typing simply slowed down and stopped. Turned it back on and the typing restarted. Is there ANY possibility that you have some sort of interference that could be doing something similar? I have just remembered that we had a similar experience in our electronics lab a few montsh ago - one of my staff was teaching about timing using a scope - as he walked towards the system it sloweed down! He had cycled in and was wearing lycra - we earthed him and it was fine!

Sorry of these are way of target.

 

[acordiansam]

Sum people have different electrial charge than others. My wife must ware a ground strap b 4 using the home computer or else it will lock up. She doesn't even have to touch one sum times. If she is mad at a store when checking out verry often the store system will lock up. More than likely not relevant but?

 

[CPezMusic]

Interesting story there. It Could be relevant! We don't know yet haha. Anyone else on ideas? I'm talking with the original engineers now about all this. Nothing yet.

 

[JerryPH]

I pretty much exhausted my input to your issue, Cory, however, I now also have a personal intrest in this issue because as of 2 weeks ago, I purchased an 8x. It was for all intents a brand new unit with less than a month's use by an older man who passed away a few weeks after having bought it. I was fortunate enough to have picked it up for a good price and in my short time with it, I have had zero issues, and trust me, I listen for stuck notes all the time.

I plan to use only the original power supply to recharge the batteries, and if I experience anything out of the ordinary, I will post it here.

Please keep us up to date with what happens, I would really appreciate it!

 

[Giovanni]

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Hi Cory , if you are having a struggle getting this sorted out by the right techie guy in Roland and with your high standing in the accordion playing and performance world !! and you have done a lot of promotion for the digital accordions !!! what chance does the normal standard accordion player have of getting good service !!!and an answer to this problem .

Regarding Tony Lovell and Dick Contino style of playing ,until I attended the Las Vegas accordion convention , I had never seen any one perform in such a style and actually wondered how long their accordions could take that heavy style of playing !!!.
I have never seen Dick perform with anything other than an acoustic accordion ............as forTony like wise but I may be wrong on this one !!

Going back to you roland problem ...have you tried this roland user digital V accordion forum ????

Regards ..............Giovanni

ps is Steve Albini still working for Roland v accordions ????



]https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/rolandv-accordions/info

 

[JIM D.]

Yes, Steve is still an artist and clinician for Roland. Steve will be performing with the new 4x on 1/8/2017 at -- http://www.falcettimusic.com/ -- For anyone wishing to attend - contact me in a PM
{} JIM :tup:

 

[jimgansett]

Hi Cory,
This type of problem has been around for quite a long time and there have been conversations about it on the Roland V-Accordion Forum. IN MY CASE, sometimes the sticking note does happen with the bass chords. It has only happened, strangely, when I have been using the snare sounds on chord. It will stick a note until I shut off and put the accordion back on. Now, the interesting thing is that a) I only get it on sting sounds like guitar and mandolin on chords and b) whichever note is stuck playing it will happen on ALL chords containing the sticking note. I can easily get around it by switching to a different chord orchestration, say to piano. But it doesn't solve the problem.
Another interesting thing is that it doesn't seem to happen unless I use a lot of force, like a sharp snare hit! So, I thought maybe it was a bass board problem also, but judging from what you said, maybe it isn't, I don't have lots of bass boards to test it with.

So, if you ever find a reason, let me know! The other weird thing is that sometimes the problem would go away for a long time, and then for no apparent reason resurfaces.

Jim from the MAAA

 

[kep]

I'm not sure, but the sticky note issue could be caused by logical overload: there are too many events to process. It's easy to check: if you can repeat the sticky note situation, try to remove some of the orchestral voices, switch off effects, another word - simplify the sound and see if the sticky note disappeared.

Regards,
Kep

 

[BakersfieldAccordion]

Many thanks to Corey for bringing the “hanging note” issue to the forum.

I have experimented a great deal with the stuck note problem with the 7x. There have been some hypotheses that make sense, but based on my experiences I haven’t found any compelling explanation or solution. I am specifically referring to notes that are stuck in the bass or chord section, not the treble. My electronics knowledge is limited, but that hasn’t stopped me from experimenting. Here are some of my experiences:

Swapping parts from a “good” 7x:
Switched the entire bass assembly with one known to be fully functioning.
Result. Stuck notes continued.
[This bears on the idea that some buttons are over-used and the problem is with the buttons themselves.]

What I wanted to do is to systematically replace the most likely components. I started to do that last year, beginning with the bass assembly, but realized that, with my limited electronics experience, I could easily cause problems with both the good instrument and the flawed one. I thought Roland surely could do that and at least pinpoint a component that seems to be a cause, but it would be time-consuming and expensive.

Simplifying EVERYTHING. Hanging notes continued to occur regardless:
Factory reset.
Removing all expansions.
Playing ONLY factory accordion sets with no orchestra voicing.
Playing through headphones only, at reduced volume.
Going back to earlier system versions.
[This bears on the idea that the stuck notes are due to an overload of some sort, or that the issue is due to add-on programming. In addition, since only accordion sounds with bellows control were used, it wouldn’t seem to be related to touch sensitivity.]

Power Source:
Stuck notes have occurred with a newly charged battery, a nearly depleted battery, or when connected to the FBC-7 OR to the Recchia power supply.
I DID notice that the problem became intense just before my power switch malfunctioned became always “on.” I had the power supply assembly replaced and for a while the stuck note problem seemed to be much improved for a month or two. I’m afraid these are not systematic observations, so I wouldn’t make too much of them, because as many people have mentioned, the problem seems to come and go. I have no explanation for why a new power supply assembly seemed to temporarily eliminate the symptoms, but regardless, the symptoms returned after a month or so.

What turns off the hanging note(s):
The SAME exact physical button must be pressed again to release the stuck note. You cannot, for example, press a counterbass “C” if the C that stuck was in the fundamental row.

You cannot turn off the stuck note by going to a different set, by switching to orchestral basses, or as far as I can tell by any means other than re-pressing the same button or by turning off the instrument.

Intermittent Problem:
What others have found, as well as myself, is that the stuck notes can seemingly disappear for long periods of time—days, weeks, months, even years—for no known reason. The problem may or may not reappear, based on reports from a number of owners.

From what I know, many 7x instruments have seldom if ever experienced stuck notes, or if they do, so infrequently as to be inconsequential. What is it about the aging process that would contribute to the problem? If it’s just the frequency of playing, it may take many years for the average owner to approach the usage of someone like Corey. Even in my case, with lots of playing, only one of my instruments has experienced the problem. I don’t really think we have enough evidence to know for certain about the likelihood of it happening with all 7x instruments or all v-accordions, but it remains a plausible prospect in my mind.

The 7x has been an incredibly sturdy workhorse for me. In many hundreds of gigs it has not once failed me on the job—even when using the one with the issue. This is easily the most perplexing issue I have ever faced with the v-accordions, so if anyone discovers a solution I would happily join Corey in providing a reward.

Richard