What specifically is wrong ,with chinese built Hohner accordions?

[Plinky]

There seems to be a lot of criticism of modern Hohner chinese accordions.
And build quality seems to be an issue but in what way?

My Hohner bravo silent key is well constructed, the treble and bass mechanisms look well machined and as accordions are basically just plywood shells for reeds the polymer case is very plain but it should be strong and durable.

The keyboard action on my new Hohner silent key is superior to my vintage Hohners and the bass side is a much better balance and the black notes height and width are more comfortable to play.

It's airtight and the reeds speak really quick and they are in perfect tune but if I had one criticism it's the slight harshness of the reeds but that's probably more to do with the metal fondo and everything mellows with age.

I have played a Bugari 48 Bass and it was indeed a lovely accordion but it's 2 ½ times the price of the Hohner.

I do wonder if it's like a lot of things nowadays, poor quality control.
I had several far eastern guitars in the workshop over the years and the quality of the materials has been excellent but a poor final setup has really let them down.

I did play another 48 bass Italian sounding brand that was made in china
And it was certainly inferior in build quality,action ,reed response etc but was half the price of the Hohner.

My Hohner student vm is certainly a thing of beauty with its wonderful 40s styling and sweet sounding reeds and that clickety clack when playing

And the new Hohner is quite frankly soul less in comparison but the retired professional accordionist that gave me a few tips ,preferred the new Hohner as with his bellows control and light touch he could get more out of it.

I,m a little concerned that prospective players might be put off buying a new Hohner and then buy a vintage basketcase that will certainly put them off playing.

I think buying from a reputable company that is experienced with accordions so would give the box a once over before it's sold is probably a very good idea.

But as a new entry level instrument that doesn't need,tuning,new pallet facing,springs,gaskets etc it feels good, strong and robust and at 4.9 kg
Nice and light and would seem an excellent choice to learn on.

 

[dak]

You ask "what specifically is wrong with Chinese-built Hohner accordions" and the answer to that is "none". If there were anything specifically wrong it could get changed in the course of production oversight. The problem is more one of a different work culture. Problems in production in Germany/Italy get fixed by educating the worker. Problems in China get fixed by exchanging the worker. But the latter method does not accumulate fixes and knowledge. That means that the production stays around an advanced apprentice-level quality and consistency, a bit of a lottery where there is a certain level of problems, but you cannot pinpoint just where they will be in any individual instrument.

It does not need to be/stay that way: there was a time when "made in Japan" meant poor quality in general as well, but in areas like cars, optics, electronics they've turned the comparison on its head. China hasn't made the same kind of turnaround so far, and the political system with its general disregard for the value of an individual and lack of appreciation of individual skills may or may not have something to do with it.

 

[dunlustin]

Plinky, your hands-on comments are encouraging.
Maybe a new iteration of Hohner 'value' boxes is arriving?
That'd be nice.
As to "anything specifically wrong " - well I admit Hohners are not a patch on the Tiangong Space Station, or 8 million EV car production in 2023, or the longest high speed rail line at 2760 km from a network total of 42,000 km or the 420,000 electric buses.
I guess they will just have to work a bit harder to catch up with the rest of us.

Oops, nearly forgot,- Accordions are quite popular too:

2014 Hohner Cup National Accordion Competition, July 18th to 21st, Daily Report - July 20th 2014 BaoAn, Shenzhen, China

2014 Hohner Cup National Accordion Competition, July 18th to 21st, Daily Report - July 20th 2014 BaoAn, Shenzhen, China. accordion competition, accordion festival, artists, accordion, accordion teacher

www.accordions.com

 

[Plinky]

You ask "what specifically is wrong with Chinese-built Hohner accordions" and the answer to that is "none". If there were anything specifically wrong it could get changed in the course of production oversight. The problem is more one of a different work culture. Problems in production in Germany/Italy get fixed by educating the worker. Problems in China get fixed by exchanging the worker. But the latter method does not accumulate fixes and knowledge. That means that the production stays around an advanced apprentice-level quality and consistency, a bit of a lottery where there is a certain level of problems, but you cannot pinpoint just where they will be in any individual instrument.

It does not need to be/stay that way: there was a time when "made in Japan" meant poor quality in general as well, but in areas like cars, optics, electronics they've turned the comparison on its head. China hasn't made the same kind of turnaround so far, and the political system with its general disregard for the value of an individual and lack of appreciation of individual skills may or may not have something to do with it.

Hi Dak, I believe the Hohner factory in china is overseen by German engineers and has specific tooling designed for Hohner ,so I'm sure it incorporates all the information and knowledge that Hohner has acquired in its numerous years building accordions and sadly most modern workshop globally have few artisans most are machine operators.

I have built several guitars, ukes, banjos, fiddles over the years and I do build with a passion.
I personally enjoy carving necks but it's labour intensive and watching a CNC fret slotting /neck carving absolutely perfect every time at a fraction of the cost and time was a little shocking.

If the argument is that accordions should be built in the traditional way ,then there would be no need for innovation or acquiring any new skills or techniques.

I have been over the new Hohner with a very critical eye and I have my Hohner VM 1953/57 for comparison and the old Hohner is certainly more inspiring to look at and play but the new Hohner is growing on me and I think it a little harsh if one derides it based more on where its made ,and not how its built.

I don't know how it compares in cost to a new VM in the 50s but technology and innovation have cut the cost to just about everything

I bought a brand new guitar for a friends daughter to learn on ,it was a squier telecaster made in indonesia it was on sale £120 absolutely crazy
Wonderful guitar the fret dressing was spot on ,the only thing was the nut needed re slotting
I,m retired now but would charge more than that for a re fret.

 

[Plinky]

Plinky, your hands-on comments are encouraging.
Maybe a new iteration of Hohner 'value' boxes is arriving?
That'd be nice.
As to "anything specifically wrong " - well I admit Hohners are not a patch on the Tiangong Space Station, or 8 million EV car production in 2023, or the longest high speed rail line at 2760 km from a network total of 42,000 km or the 420,000 electric buses.
I guess they will just have to work a bit harder to catch up with the rest of us.

Oops, nearly forgot,- Accordions are quite popular too:

2014 Hohner Cup National Accordion Competition, July 18th to 21st, Daily Report - July 20th 2014 BaoAn, Shenzhen, China

2014 Hohner Cup National Accordion Competition, July 18th to 21st, Daily Report - July 20th 2014 BaoAn, Shenzhen, China. accordion competition, accordion festival, artists, accordion, accordion teacher

www.accordions.com

Good point Dunlustin,I think it's also a bit of chinese whispers “excuse the pun”
A friend Banjo/Melodeon player told me new Hohners were absolutely awful but he had never actually played or even seen one LOL
He loves his Gold Tone banjo (that was made in china) probably because he had actually played one before cultivating an opinion.

I think volume is another point, if one sells millions of mass produced things (and I don't think quality control is what it used to be) the issues are highlighted

I only built two violins one on a makers coarse and a second for a friend and never had any complaints ,and if I had it would only be two

 

[JerryPH]

I had one personal experience where my uncle purchased a new Hohner bravo III. He called me over to ask me about some issues he was experiencing. He had paid $3200CAD+taxes, so it was not cheap by any means.

Sticking keys, many notes clearly out of tune, a registration that did not work on all selector buttons and a leaking bellows are what this 100% new accordion offered. When I opened it up, I saw plastic pallets, plastic internals and workmanship issues galore. He ended up returning it for a full refund and later on purchased a 35 year old Scandalli Brevette that was 1/3rd the price and a 10 times better accordion.

Are they all like that? I cannot tell, I did not play them all, but ask me if I would spend my money on a new Hohner, and would say 100% no… and that is coming from someone that LOVES his Hohner accordions and just lately travelled from Canada to the Netherlands to pick up my last Hohner. Of the 14 accordions I own, 4 are Hohner… that makes me a Hohner fan boy and I don’t mind one bit.

 

[tcabot]

Of the 14 accordions I own

@Plinky I don't care where things are made - China is capable of producing very high quality goods. Said it before, and will keep saying it again and again - a lot of consumer dissatisfaction comes because a £300 product is ordered from China, the western brand owner slaps on a 100% markup and passes it to wholesalers who slap on a 100% mark up, who pass it to retailers for another 100% mark up, add taxes and you end up paying £2k for something that started as £300 and fails to meet expectation.

An adult-sized Bravo costs £2k for 3 voices of machine stamped reeds brand new. Even if everything inside is perfect, it is still a beginner box that one will outgrow in 6-12 months. If you shop around, £1-2k can get you a pro-level used Italian model in great condition, with 4-5 voices, double cassotto, excellent build quality, good tone and at least tipo a mano reeds. Which makes me wonder just how much Hohner want for their badge. Perhaps, the "new hohners are bad" attitude comes from the mismatch of price vs what you get. I don't know.

 

[debra]

Some years ago a friend of mine tried a Chinese-made Verdi II (which Hohner now no longer produces) side by side by an older German one. The bass of the Chinese one lacked "depth" and just didn't sound as nice. I also read that these Chinese Hohners have issues with springs that break, but my friend did not experience that as he decided not to buy that accordion.
Another friend bought a Hohner Amica forte IV 120 a few months ago. The lowest octave has an "interesting" sound, a bit mellow, but all higher notes are way too sharp for my taste, and overall this makes the sound unbalanced between low and high. So far everything seems to work and the accordion is not out of tune. This accordion retails for around 3.800 euro, which I consider a lot for an accordion that performs like this one does. My friend specifically wanted a lightweight accordion and the Amica fits the bill. I would not buy it at this price however. I consider it worth at most 75% of this price... but that has been true for Hohner accordions for many decades already...

 

[Plinky]

I had one personal experience where my uncle purchased a new Hohner bravo III. He called me over to ask me about some issues he was experiencing. He had paid $3200CAD+taxes, so it was not cheap by any means.

Sticking keys, many notes clearly out of tune, a registration that did not work on all selector buttons and a leaking bellows are what this 100% new accordion offered. When I opened it up, I saw plastic pallets, plastic internals and workmanship issues galore. He ended up returning it for a full refund and later on purchased a 35 year old Scandalli Brevette that was 1/3rd the price and a 10 times better accordion.

Are they all like that? I cannot tell, I did not play them all, but ask me if I would spend my money on a new Hohner, and would say 100% no… and that is coming from someone that LOVES his Hohner accordions and just lately travelled from Canada to the Netherlands to pick up my last Hohner. Of the 14 accordions I own, 4 are Hohner… that makes me a Hohner fan boy and I don’t mind one bit.

Hi Jerry, I think that really highlights the problem. If his brand new accordion had all these issues, who on earth sold it to him in this condition?Surely the fault is with the quality control of the shop?

I was told accordions should come with some sort of bass /treble card thing for shipping because the bass end is prone to damage in transit and the rebel end to shocks and I don't think couriers take care with anything ……..This way up LOL

Things used to be referred to as a Friday night special,and I have had some very expensive instruments turn up less than perfect so one bad experience doesn't necessarily mean anything is inherently defective ,perhaps the chap that finished it off found out that he wasn't the real father of any of his nine children !

I think I'm something of a contradiction as I love vintage stuff but you mentioned plastic pallets !
The pallets for my Bell Hohner vm will be 3D printed as I did some for a melodeon and they are incredibly light and strong ,virtually clip in ,and you can use traditional felt and leather but you can also recess for a neoprene gasket ,I have made several little components that would be are virtually impossible to make out of wood, and if it's on the inside nobody will know

 

[dak]

Hi Dak, I believe the Hohner factory in china is overseen by German engineers and has specific tooling designed for Hohner ,so I'm sure it incorporates all the information and knowledge that Hohner has acquired in its numerous years building accordions and sadly most modern workshop globally have few artisans most are machine operators.

I have built several guitars, ukes, banjos, fiddles over the years and I do build with a passion.
I personally enjoy carving necks but it's labour intensive and watching a CNC fret slotting /neck carving absolutely perfect every time at a fraction of the cost and time was a little shocking.

It becomes less shocking two years later when the neck that has been milled without the tool getting bothered by the wood grain has had time to change from being 100% perfect low action to unusable. CNC milling is perfect for inert isotropic material like aluminum. Necks are a bit of a tossup. Something like a violin cover is junk when CNC-milled since then structural stability requires you to take thicknesses that don't resonate and are unpleasantly heavy.

 

[petch]

I think if you were to get an Italian accordion down to the cost of these Chinese made ones, they would likely be similar quality (if not worse) than the Chinese ones. Hohner is the exception where you're paying for the brand name and the price of a Chinese Hohner ends up in the same ballpark as an Italian factory accordion. You're getting a £400 accordion for £1500, probably from the exact same factory!

 

[tcabot]

Don't see a problem with CNC milling necks. Carving them is a treat though so why would you deny yourself a pleasant job?
CNC milling a soundboard does not work because CNC does not take its stiffness into the account. Rough-milling tops is absolutely fine if they are finished by hand afterwards. However, rough-carving a top with a mini chainsaw is also a lot of fun (especially if you get yourself one of those texas chainsaw massacre masks), so why would you deny yourself another pleasant job?

 

[Plinky]

@Plinky I don't care where things are made - China is capable of producing very high quality goods. Said it before, and will keep saying it again and again - a lot of consumer dissatisfaction comes because a £300 product is ordered from China, the western brand owner slaps on a 100% markup and passes it to wholesalers who slap on a 100% mark up, who pass it to retailers for another 100% mark up, add taxes and you end up paying £2k for something that started as £300 and fails to meet expectation.

An adult-sized Bravo costs £2k for 3 voices of machine stamped reeds brand new. Even if everything inside is perfect, it is still a beginner box that one will outgrow in 6-12 months. If you shop around, £1-2k can get you a pro-level used Italian model in great condition, with 4-5 voices, double cassotto, excellent build quality, good tone and at least tipo a mano reeds. Which makes me wonder just how much Hohner want for their badge. Perhaps, the "new hohners are bad" attitude comes from the mismatch of price vs what you get. I don't know.

Hi Tcabot you made a good point ,but in the sub £1000 for a beginners box and most teachers recommend a 48 bass as a starter instrument and certainly if one didn't want to do any fettling the options are either a vintage Hohner or similar or a new Hohner with a 2 year warranty or an unbranded chinese instrument.

Having played a new Hohner and another chinese 48 bass I would say the Hohner is a much better quality instrument but is it worth twice the price?
I must say the silent key thing I thought a gimmick is actually silent and the action very smooth and the padded gig bag it comes with is great I have ordered one for my Student VM

I think my only concern is if someone is just starting out and wants an instrument with warranty that's very playable and they're not really looking to buy a professional instrument yet It's probably a reasonable choice.


But from reading some of the posts one would assume it would arrive in pieces, unplayable and about to break or fall apart at the first sign of use LOL

My Hohner student VM is much better value for money but it needed new bellows gaskets one sticking reed a couple of valves replacing and I put on a new velcro bass strap ,very little work as its well tuned but to some people that would be very off putting

 

[Plinky]

Don't see a problem with CNC milling necks. Carving them is a treat though so why would you deny yourself a pleasant job?
CNC milling a soundboard does not work because CNC does not take its stiffness into the account. Rough-milling tops is absolutely fine if they are finished by hand afterwards. However, rough-carving a top with a mini chainsaw is also a lot of fun (especially if you get yourself one of those texas chainsaw massacre masks), so why would you deny yourself another pleasant job?

"Carving them is a treat though so why would you deny yourself a pleasant job?" not economically viable and I don't want a day job LOL

not economically viable and I don't want a day jobI think if you were to get an Italian accordion down to the cost of these Chinese made ones, Hohner is the exception where you're paying for the brand name and the price of a Chinese Hohner ends up in the same ballpark as an Italian factory accordion. You're getting a £400 accordion for £1500, probably from the exact same factory!

I think if you were to get an Italian accordion down to the cost of these Chinese made ones, they would likely be similar quality (if not worse) than the Chinese ones. Hohner is the exception where you're paying for the brand name and the price of a Chinese Hohner ends up in the same ballpark as an Italian factory accordion. You're getting a £400 accordion for £1500, probably from the exact same factory!

Hi petch having played a new Hohner silent key and another chinese 48 bass I would say the Hohner is a much better quality instrument,and you can buy one for under £1000 is it twice as good,dont know and the only new italian made accordion I could find was Bugari Juniorfisa 48 Bass £2500? I have a friend that imports from China CNC work and I think there are a lot of misconceptions about Chinese factories they have a sliding scale for quality and the same components may be made in the same factory but with different specifications .Aluminum comes in grades and is determined by end use application and price point.It's not unlike buying a suit all the equipment for making the suit is in the same place, but the choice of material,fit and finish can be very different in quality and cost.

 

[tcabot]

most teachers recommend a 48 bass as a starter instrument

I've been told to go 4/4 or nothing by several accordionists, although that's CBA. "3/4 are for children" - that's what they told me. I am, however, 6ft2.
That is a strange recommendation, as the 48 bass box is tiny - I'm not even sure how one will hold it. I'm struggling to hold my current diatonic morino without a foot stand, as for my liking it lacks a couple inches of height.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

There was a time when accordion repair technicians refused to work on Chinese Hohners or any other brand of accordion made in China because of the non- traditional materials and construction that was found in them. A couple of years after that, I learned indirectly that one repairer found a way to deal with those problems, but would charge a little more compared to what he would charge for similar repairs on European accordions.

By now, he’s probably not alone.

 

[Plinky]

I've been told to go 4/4 or nothing by several accordionists, although that's CBA. "3/4 are for children" - that's what they told me. I am, however, 6ft2.
That is a strange recommendation, as the 48 bass box is tiny - I'm not even sure how one will hold it. I'm struggling to hold my current diatonic morino without a foot stand, as for my liking it lacks a couple inches of height.

Hi tcabot I think we are talking about very different kind of accordion styles




I did try a 120 bass but its like having a small hippo on you knee and I,m no spring chicken
A 48 bass will do me fine and when i can play like either of these chaps I might think about more buttons LOL
This will probably be my next purchase


The chap that has given me a few tips is a retired professional accordionist and he has the same 48 bass accordion
and plays wonderfully french tunes, jazz ,blues and some amazing classical pieces
I,m mid 60s I will ask him if I can make a video of him playing as it's just crazy and I don't think I've got enough years left to be able to play that well
with the 48 buttons and 26 keys I have now

“as to being being told go 4/4 or nothing” I don't subscribe to such silliness if the merits of an instrument was based on its size we would all be playing one of these



and try getting a case

 

[Plinky]

There was a time when accordion repair technicians refused to work on Chinese Hohners or any other brand of accordion made in China because of the non- traditional materials and construction that was found in them. A couple of years after that, I learned indirectly that one repairer found a way to deal with those problems, but would charge a little more compared to what he would charge for similar repairs on European accordions.

By now, he’s probably not alone.

Hi Alan
I'm a little surprised I have never turned away work from the workshop and have worked on some absolute firewood in my time
As to parts I'm more from a melodian playing background and although a traditionalist I have reluctantly embraced technology
I have 3D printed various parts
The dreadful little hook under button rods on vintage Hohners rust and also pull to the side but a slotted lever with a straight rod and a split pin is much better and because of the tolerances a great press fit

I initially had reservations about the strength but a bench test and its incredibly strong only 3mm wide with 1mm slot.
I also made some pallets for the melodeon and they worked out great.

I'm going to print some 3D printed pallets for my Bell VM accordion refurbishment .I would like to keep the exterior as original as possible
but I think this technology is quite wonderful and my next project is 3D printed reed blocks for the vintage hohners
I have printed a single block with a recess with a neoprene gasket and 2 self tapping screws and it works perfectly “no dam wax” but my friend has some idea about us varying the reed chamber ! so I await his conclusions with interest

 

[LibraryJoe]

Just my 2 cents.... After playing piano accordion for 50 plus years, I was encouraged to try chromatic button accordions. My Chinese made accordion-- an E. Soprani played and sounded pretty decently for the six months I owned it. I traded it up to an Italian made CBA with a few more features, after deciding my "experiment" would succeed. My new accordion is about twice the price, with better reeds and a couple of additional register switches. I lost a few hundred dollars in an Ebay sale, but used the net to add towards my new accordion.
I was told there were horrible Chinese made accordions, and decent--if not outstanding makes as well. A frequent discussion here on the forum is what's wrong with Chinese accordions. I felt my Chinese made accordion benefited from some quality checks from the US dealer--a well known one-- as well as some quality control-- either from the factory itself and/or the (supposed) quality checks from the Italian importer.
As suggested in an earlier post, perhaps the Chinese Hohner factory is getting their act together? I really do enjoy my Chinese made Cordoba classical guitar, and I'm told there a other imported brands which are of good quality, but of substantially lower cost to brands from the States.

 

[Plinky]

Some years ago a friend of mine tried a Chinese-made Verdi II (which Hohner now no longer produces) side by side by an older German one. The bass of the Chinese one lacked "depth" and just didn't sound as nice. I also read that these Chinese Hohners have issues with springs that break, but my friend did not experience that as he decided not to buy that accordion.
Another friend bought a Hohner Amica forte IV 120 a few months ago. The lowest octave has an "interesting" sound, a bit mellow, but all higher notes are way too sharp for my taste, and overall this makes the sound unbalanced between low and high. So far everything seems to work and the accordion is not out of tune. This accordion retails for around 3.800 euro, which I consider a lot for an accordion that performs like this one does. My friend specifically wanted a lightweight accordion and the Amica fits the bill. I would not buy it at this price however. I consider it worth at most 75% of this price... but that has been true for Hohner accordions for many decades already...

Hi debra I think that Hohner are probably bumping up the price a bit because of their brand name ,but I set a budget of around £1000 for a new one as I knew I would also want a couple of vintage Hohners.

Ironically the silent key is supposedly a selling point and it's very good it's noiseless but the clickety clack is almost integral to the sound of the triplets in the style of music I want to play LOL

The Bugari was beautiful rich sounding but I don't think i,m competent enough to feel any real differences in bellows feel or action

I think the Hohner student is easier to play than both of them ,but that might just be because it's much lighter and in competent hands they all sounded wonderful and the vintage Hohner definitely has too big a bass for the treble side but he seemed to just compensate.

I do think that the new Hohner is better built than the other Chinese box I tried and the Bugari was beautifully finished.

I think the point I was trying to make is for an entry level the Hohner is a decent sounding ,very playable instrument that needs no work and as a stepping stone to something like a Bugari a good choice for a beginner

I think it's inevitable that there will be the occasional issues from a mass produced instrument sold at volume ,but it does come with a warranty and if I had joined the forum just to get an idea of what to buy as a starter box a lot of the comments would have put me off and probably from several people that have never actually played one.