What specifically is wrong ,with chinese built Hohner accordions?

[Alan Sharkis]

I apologize. I should have stated that my comments were based on repair technicians in the USA.

Also, that time was before 3D printers were generally available. In fact.

 

[Plinky]

Just to say how much I am enjoying this conversation.

Hi Richard, it's quite informative .I do understand the passion for either Italian made or vintage Hohner instruments, but I didn't realise there was a sort of hierarchy depending on how many buttons one has.

It does open up an interesting conundrum, on what actually constitutes a proper accordion.

The Bugari Juniorfisa 48 Bass Accordion is Italian made but it's only 48 bass so does not meet Alfred Mirek's minimum 3/4 instrument.

But the Bravo III 120 Bass Accordion does meet the bass requirements but its made in China.

Reminds me a little of the old Groucho Marx joke.

Groucho Marx's daughter wanted to join a swimming club.
The club was anti-Semitic - so she couldn't get in.
Groucho wrote to the club and said, 'For your information, my daughter is half-Jewish. Can she go in the pool up to her waist?

 

[Tom]

I’m so glad I got my accordions when I did by buying directly from the maker, and getting my Corona in trade for a Fender bass head. Are there any China made parts in them? Who knows. I tried one of those new Chinese piano accordions (not Hohner) and I swear the bass wires were thinner than my hair. It arrived unplayable and was returned the next day in the same condition, repair by me being untenable. Sad. I wish good luck to all people trying to buy a decent accordion in this day and age. I’m holding on to everything I’ve got and watching them rise in actual (not necessarily monetary) value.

 

[Ventura]

a friend once bought one of those Rosetti's because it looked
so nice with all the bling and had an italian name on it..
honesty, i tried to play a few songs on it for him, but had to
set it down and explain that the instrument was un-playable.

a decade later he picked up a mid sized Bravo 3 reed to keep at
his office so he could practice and relax on his breaks, and while it
was not perfect, i had no problem playing it for him for an hour or so.

Here in the DMV, pre-owned Bravo's are occasionally found at reasonable
prices, and many club members on a budget have snapped them up
and are having good results.. Joe has made a few spot repairs for
some members but no big issues reported.

It is an easy thing for many of us, who have a clue about repair and
can pop a bellows off for a look see, to find used old accordions that
are still in decent condition, but many student level and amateur/
casual players are simply on a budget, and trying to get a reasonable
value for their money at low risk. This is why the $2000 price point
is a target for Hohner and the Bravo line, available literally everywhere
no-need to "Be" a Hohner dealer or even an accordion shop to carry them
and sell them.

it's not like the accordion industry has any moral high ground anymore..
hell one recent poster actually thought there was an E. Soprani factory
somewhere on earth.. and when Dallape closed it's doors, the Scion took
Roland's money for the right to associate their new model with the Dallape name
and legend.. the deliberate dis-information that comes out of Germany and
Italy on a continuing basis.. the shadow and innuendo marketing..

how does a casual player on a budget stand a chance ?

and how many brands have gone bankrupt in this century and exited
existence leaving pre-paid customers holding the bag ?

 

[OuijaBoard]

Hi Richard, it's quite informative .I do understand the passion for either Italian made or vintage Hohner instruments, but I didn't realise there was a sort of hierarchy depending on how many buttons one has.

It does open up an interesting conundrum, on what actually constitutes a proper accordion.

The Bugari Juniorfisa 48 Bass Accordion is Italian made but it's only 48 bass so does not meet Alfred Mirek's minimum 3/4 instrument.

But the Bravo III 120 Bass Accordion does meet the bass requirements but its made in China.

Reminds me a little of the old Groucho Marx joke.

Groucho Marx's daughter wanted to join a swimming club.
The club was anti-Semitic - so she couldn't get in.
Groucho wrote to the club and said, 'For your information, my daughter is half-Jewish. Can she go in the pool up to her waist?

Hi Richard, it's quite informative .I do understand the passion for either Italian made or vintage Hohner instruments, but I didn't realise there was a sort of hierarchy depending on how many buttons one has.

It does open up an interesting conundrum, on what actually constitutes a proper accordion.

The Bugari Juniorfisa 48 Bass Accordion is Italian made but it's only 48 bass so does not meet Alfred Mirek's minimum 3/4 instrument.

But the Bravo III 120 Bass Accordion does meet the bass requirements but its made in China.

Speaking of the Bugari 26 48 and to further muddy the waters, I bought one of those a couple of years before the pandemic. Through Reverb, from a known dealer in Illinois. I've related here that it arrived with at least half the keys sticking and unplayable, after which my tech sent me photos of gunk smeared on the treble and bass mechanism. The dealer claimed, "That's how they do it at Bugari." I believed at the time that it was done by a prior owner and the box was a return they passed off as new, but I kept it and paid my techs to clean off the gunk.

But I don't think I've related that my tech said on the phone that the interior looked crudely constructed. He said the wood pieces fitted in to line around the inside perimeters were broken, gouged and chipped, and there was sloppy, clumsy gouging where the celluloid was turned under along the perimeters inside. He said, "Honestly it looks more like what we see in stuff from China."

Well, fast-forward to about a year or so ago, I saw a Bugari 26/48 on the site of the Solecki concern in PA, which sells Bugari. Vastly to his credit, this dealer posts extensive photos of the internals of posted instruments. All the other Bugaris were pretty as a picture inside, and not just the fanciest cassotto models, the 34/72 LMMs too.

Except . . . the internals of that 26/48 MM. Where the wood lining the perimeters was broken up and chipped, and there was sloppy, ugly gauging where the celluloid turned under at at least one corner. Just like my tech said about the one I had.

That's not nice, Italy. We are now at a point when an Italian 26-key MM goes in the 3-grand range and higher. Folk players want them, not just beginners or kids. At that price there should be some confidence about care and integrity in construction. And this kind of thing just blurs the line between Chinese at a lower price point versus that supposed superior Italian craftsmanship.

 

[Tom]

Speaking of the Bugari 26 48 and to further muddy the waters, I bought one of those a couple of years before the pandemic. Through Reverb, from a known dealer in Illinois. I've related here that it arrived with at least half the keys sticking and unplayable, after which my tech sent me photos of gunk smeared on the treble and bass mechanism. The dealer claimed, "That's how they do it at Bugari." I believed at the time that it was done by a prior owner and the box was a return they passed off as new, but I kept it and paid my techs to clean off the gunk.

But I don't think I've related that my tech said on the phone that the interior looked crudely constructed. He said the wood pieces fitted in to line around the inside perimeters were broken, gauged and chipped, and there was sloppy, clumsy gauging where the celluloid was turned under along the perimeters inside. He said, "Honestly it looks more like what we see in stuff from China."

Well, fast-forward to about a year or so ago, I saw a Bugari 26/48 on the site of the Solecki concern in PA, which sells Bugari. Vastly to his credit, this dealer posts extensive photos of the internals of posted instruments. All the other Bugaris were pretty as a picture inside, and not just the fanciest cassotto models, the 34/72 LMMs too.

Except . . . the internals of that 26/48 MM. Where the wood lining the perimeters was broken up and chipped, and there was sloppy, ugly gauging where the celluloid turned under at at least one corner. Just like my tech said about the one I had.

That's not nice, Italy. We are now at a point when an Italian 26-key MM goes in the 3-grand range and higher. Folk players want them, not just beginners or kids. At that price there should be some confidence about care and integrity in construction. And this kind of thing just blurs the line between Chinese at a lower price point versus that supposed superior Italian craftsmanship.

Maybe it was actually not built in Italy? …..just saying….:

 

[dak]

Maybe it was actually not built in Italy? …..just saying….:

Or they have a Chinese worker hidden away in the Bugari basement. I think that there is actually some construct like that for "made in Italy" clothing.

 

[OuijaBoard]

I dunno. I did like it to play. Italian Durall reeds but a big, thick-built chassis and a big, rich voice. I lost it in my first-ever and hopefully last-ever stolen instrument experience, smashed car windows in an indoor pay lot with 24-hour security. I see they're now orderable with TAM and 60 basses. But I feel bad and sad when I think about that internal construction at the price.

 

[Tom]

I dunno. I did like it to play. Italian Durall reeds but a big, thick-built chassis and a big, rich voice. I lost it in my first-ever and hopefully last-ever stolen instrument experience, smashed car windows in an indoor pay lot with 24-hour security. I see they're now orderable with TAM and 60 basses. But I feel bad and sad when I think about that internal construction at the price.

Sorry to hear that.

 

[Plinky]

Speaking of the Bugari 26 48 and to further muddy the waters, I bought one of those a couple of years before the pandemic. Through Reverb, from a known dealer in Illinois. I've related here that it arrived with at least half the keys sticking and unplayable, after which my tech sent me photos of gunk smeared on the treble and bass mechanism. The dealer claimed, "That's how they do it at Bugari." I believed at the time that it was done by a prior owner and the box was a return they passed off as new, but I kept it and paid my techs to clean off the gunk.

But I don't think I've related that my tech said on the phone that the interior looked crudely constructed. He said the wood pieces fitted in to line around the inside perimeters were broken, gouged and chipped, and there was sloppy, clumsy gouging where the celluloid was turned under along the perimeters inside. He said, "Honestly it looks more like what we see in stuff from China."

Well, fast-forward to about a year or so ago, I saw a Bugari 26/48 on the site of the Solecki concern in PA, which sells Bugari. Vastly to his credit, this dealer posts extensive photos of the internals of posted instruments. All the other Bugaris were pretty as a picture inside, and not just the fanciest cassotto models, the 34/72 LMMs too.

Except . . . the internals of that 26/48 MM. Where the wood lining the perimeters was broken up and chipped, and there was sloppy, ugly gauging where the celluloid turned under at at least one corner. Just like my tech said about the one I had.

That's not nice, Italy. We are now at a point when an Italian 26-key MM goes in the 3-grand range and higher. Folk players want them, not just beginners or kids. At that price there should be some confidence about care and integrity in construction. And this kind of thing just blurs the line between Chinese at a lower price point versus that supposed superior Italian craftsmanship.

Hi ouijaboard I didn't get to have a look inside but it did play quite nicely

but I did think that the keyboard action was quieter and slightly better on the Hohner

Speaking of the Bugari 26 48 and to further muddy the waters, I bought one of those a couple of years before the pandemic. Through Reverb, from a known dealer in Illinois. I've related here that it arrived with at least half the keys sticking and unplayable, after which my tech sent me photos of gunk smeared on the treble and bass mechanism. The dealer claimed, "That's how they do it at Bugari." I believed at the time that it was done by a prior owner and the box was a return they passed off as new, but I kept it and paid my techs to clean off the gunk.

But I don't think I've related that my tech said on the phone that the interior looked crudely constructed. He said the wood pieces fitted in to line around the inside perimeters were broken, gouged and chipped, and there was sloppy, clumsy gouging where the celluloid was turned under along the perimeters inside. He said, "Honestly it looks more like what we see in stuff from China."

Well, fast-forward to about a year or so ago, I saw a Bugari 26/48 on the site of the Solecki concern in PA, which sells Bugari. Vastly to his credit, this dealer posts extensive photos of the internals of posted instruments. All the other Bugaris were pretty as a picture inside, and not just the fanciest cassotto models, the 34/72 LMMs too.

Except . . . the internals of that 26/48 MM. Where the wood lining the perimeters was broken up and chipped, and there was sloppy, ugly gauging where the celluloid turned under at at least one corner. Just like my tech said about the one I had.

That's not nice, Italy. We are now at a point when an Italian 26-key MM goes in the 3-grand range and higher. Folk players want them, not just beginners or kids. At that price there should be some confidence about care and integrity in construction. And this kind of thing just blurs the line between Chinese at a lower price point versus that supposed superior Italian craftsmanship.

Hi ouijaboard oh dear thats not good on a supposedly handmade instrument.I didn't get to have a look inside but it did play quite nicely
but I did think that the keyboard action was quieter and slightly better on the Hohner

 

[Walker]

Well I don't think there is anything specifically wrong with any Chinese accordions - Hohner or otherwise.

Okay, well there's maybe one thing... they're not great for calming skittish horses.

 

[debra]

They used special wax recipes for those IIRC.

I don't know what was special about the wax they used. In any case it was missing a vital property: the ability to keep the reed plates attached to the reed block.
I did check my photos from that repair. Here is one that shows how badly the wax was keeping the reed plates attached to the reed blocks.
But I also found out that this Weltmeister had Czech register switches, so this Weltmeister was very likely produced by the Delicia factory, not by Weltmeister in Germany.

You see, Hohners made in China may not be the worst accordions with a European brand name...

 

[dak]

I don't know what was special about the wax they used. In any case it was missing a vital property: the ability to keep the reed plates attached to the reed block.
I did check my photos from that repair. Here is one that shows how badly the wax was keeping the reed plates attached to the reed blocks.
But I also found out that this Weltmeister had Czech register switches, so this Weltmeister was very likely produced by the Delicia factory, not by Weltmeister in Germany.

Maybe they used standard wax... I think the recipe for plastic may have used a certain (or higher) amount of colophonium (some kind of resin) but I am definitely less than sure about that. Your photograph appears to show different colors, kind of weird.

You see, Hohners made in China may not be the worst accordions with a European brand name...

For sure, that one looks like a stinker. And the reed plates don't look like they have been retuned half a dozen times, so it really may be a factory job. Ugh.

 

[Plinky]

Hi dak I think that's probably a little harsh.I worked with a Chinese engineer and his expertise and attention to detail was second to none.

I think the issues is more poorly trained and poorly paid and with profit margins
Squeezed with global trading everyone is chasing the same dollar
so I suppose it's inevitable that quality and standards will drop

My Hohner Student VM is certainly my favourite box and made in Germany in the 50s so it's beautifully made and she's over 60 years old and still plays and sound great
I may have to rethink the Bugari 26/48

 

[dak]

> Hi dak I think that's probably a little harsh.I worked with a Chinese engineer and his expertise and attention to detail was second to none.

Well, that was more tongue in cheek: I think the main problem with "Made in China" for products like that is a non-working knowledge transfer and incompatible education systems. That would be less of a problem in a Bugari basement. What is more likely here is that apprentices get to start on small instruments.

 

[Plinky]

> Hi dak I think that's probably a little harsh.I worked with a Chinese engineer and his expertise and attention to detail was second to none.

Well, that was more tongue in cheek: I think the main problem with "Made in China" for products like that is a non-working knowledge transfer and incompatible education systems. That would be less of a problem in a Bugari basement. What is more likely here is that apprentices get to start on small instruments.

Hi dak I think that's quite outdated ,as I said a friend imports some pretty sophisticated CNC parts and he does occasionally visit China and he said its changed immeasurably in just a few years even the language barrier is changing as so many Chinese are learning English and I think the CAD program he uses is universal.

He said the biggest problem used to be intellectual property and cloning parts to then resupply but they are investing in R&D like crazy and I suppose it's only a matter of time before they design and build everything.

Chinese EV,s are being launched this year in the UK but I'm far too old to learn Chinese

 

[dak]

Hi dak I think that's quite outdated ,as I said a friend imports some pretty sophisticated CNC parts and he does occasionally visit China and he said its changed immeasurably in just a few years even the language barrier is changing as so many Chinese are learning English and I think the CAD program he uses is universal.

But that doesn't sound like the way accordions are built. The materials for an accordion are not perfectly machineable and reproducible. The raw materials are not entirely predictable in their properties.

He said the biggest problem used to be intellectual property and cloning parts to then resupply but they are investing in R&D like crazy and I suppose it's only a matter of time before they design and build everything.

We'll see. There are solid violins produced in China. Not those produced in factories with CNC on crucial parts. Rather those produced from masters that learnt the craft in Europe. You can save some of the cost by producing some parts with CNC from materials inspected by those who know what they are doing. But the savings are comparatively minor.

With an accordion, there are more opportunities for savings. But you still need to know what you are doing.

Chinese EV,s are being launched this year in the UK but I'm far too old to learn Chinese

Cars are not really all too representative. Yamaha does a lot of things with building musical instruments that are pretty impressive. Probably a fair number of them is "made in China" after all, but I guess that the knowledge transfer from Japan to China at a level fit for production may work more thoroughly than from Europe.

 

[Plinky]

Maybe it was actually not built in Italy? …..just saying….:

Tom to be honest I,m not really bothered where something is made if its good quality
But I bought a few items and one of the selling points was German quality engineering but rather foolishly they came directly from China
Ironically they were very well made so it wasn't really necessary.

With just about everybody outsourcing nowadays ,but still wanting to retain their
Handmade status its going to be virtually impossible to know what's actually made in house.

But that doesn't sound like the way accordions are built. The materials for an accordion are not perfectly machineable and reproducible. The raw materials are not entirely predictable in their properties.

Well, Alfred Mirek's accordion tutor book states that you need a minimum 3/4 instrument for it and from memory, most beginner bayan repertoire range exceeds 2 octaves once you've played the instrument for 2-3 months. A 48 bass is a niche instrument that's probably quite detached from its full-sized brother if you ask me, but I'm certainly no expert. And the prices on 48 basses are bloated.

You raise a good point about severe lack of student instruments. And it's not just how and where things are manufactured - it's the design too. I reckon a full-sized box with 3/4 range and two voices in unison in the right + 3 voices in the left will go a very long way if the reeds are really good quality. No registers, no switches, no extra bells & whistles, just a basic but good quality instrument. If these were available for under £1k, they'd sort the problem of student level boxes. But I guess they'd eat into the manufacturers' profits quite a bit.

Henry probably thought a 120 bass was a beginners box

 

[OuijaBoard]

> Hi dak I think that's probably a little harsh.I worked with a Chinese engineer and his expertise and attention to detail was second to none.

Well, that was more tongue in cheek: I think the main problem with "Made in China" for products like that is a non-working knowledge transfer and incompatible education systems. That would be less of a problem in a Bugari basement. What is more likely here is that apprentices get to start on small instruments.

]]]What is more likely here is that apprentices get to start on small instruments.[[[

That has been my theory since seeing internal photos of a second Bugari 26/48 that matched what my techs said about mine, and seeing the contrast with images of even the 34/72 LMMs, where the work is clean as a whistle.

The shabby internal workmanship didn't affect the response or sound. Well, once the grease was cleaned off the bass and treble mechanisms. I played it at several dances and would still be playing it today if not for losing it. It's just dismaying to think they'd charge Italian prices but give you workmanship at par with the cheapo stuff from elsewhere. It's not nice. I remember my techs, a longtime concern where Bugari is greatly regarded, were completely taken aback.

I'd actually love to have one of the 34/72 LMMs, but it's a higher weight/dimension class and I'm finding smaller/lighter a better fit.

 

[EuroFolker]

Interesting that a Chinese made Hohner was chosen for this website logo?