What specifically is wrong ,with chinese built Hohner accordions?

[Plinky]

There are two components to "a bit nothing in tone": player and instrument. To bring out the pliable tone quality of an instrument, you need to "share its breath". A back strap helps with that. You need to work with constantly controlled tension and be one with your instrument. And the instrument needs to respond to that. Good reeds will respond (and not just in volume but in timbre) to small differences even when registered as single reed (clarinet and bassoon mostly; reeds in the piccolo register tend to be less performative). You usually get a stronger pliability of tone with multiple-reed registrations (but mainly avoiding tremolo registrations which tend to be quite unsubtle).

A secondary art form is articulation: a well-shaped leggiero does a lot for having a "brilliant" shape of individual notes in a run, with a slightly pressed onset due to the accumulation of pressure while pallets were still closed. But that's more for lead play than accompaniment.

Hi dak
Many thanks, I think I'm finally getting comfortable with unisonic,as i'm more used to pumping away on a melodeon.
So playing with finesse is something I need to learn ,and my piano keys are weighted so for some bizarre reason when I pick up the accordion I feel that they're going to be weighted but I don't think that about melodeon buttons !

I have a sort of sound in my head and It might just the familiarity of that Hohner vintage melodeons T reeds sound ,as its the same as my vintage Hohner PA,s

To someone that can tell the difference and may prefer a warmer tone if that's the right term , the reeds on Bugari may well be the superior quality but as I said in another post I would choose the Hohner student vm over the Bravo or Bugari.

One factor I really hadn't considered is the new Hohner's rather
open metal grill and metal mesh.
For melodeons I use to use Aida cloth but recently a friend told me about
This cotton canvas its lock weave so it doesn't shed bits inside ,but both really take the edge off the treble reeds and the Vm has a thik grill cover

I,m useing it on the Bell Hohner and testing it certainly warmed up the sound
So I may be maligning the new Hohners reeds a little unfairly.

 

[Plinky]

Well, you'd need to take a step back for seeing the masking tape for essentially any accordion in my possession. Including the toy-size Amati III M (which has 34 buttons after all).

Well beyond me I'm afraid I,m having enough trouble with the triplets in one key ,and don't get me started on the jump and fingering for diminished chords, but its all good fun

 

[dak]

Well beyond me I'm afraid I,m having enough trouble with the triplets in one key ,and don't get me started on the jump and fingering for diminished chords, but its all good fun

Well, if you got the triplets in one key on a CBA, you get 4 other keys for free. And the fingering for diminished chords is just plunking down 4 buttons next to one another in a single horizontal row…

 

[Plinky]

For the price of the Amica Forte IV 120 I'd say this is not intended as a beginner's accordion. I have not yet looked inside but I'd be very surprised if it had chinese reeds. I know Hohner tries to make as much profit as possible (like all large companies do, nothing Hohner-specific) but I doubt they cut corners that much. I will probably just have machine reeds but hopefully at least Italian (or Czech). I will not likely open it up to check until the mandatory two year European warranty runs out.

Hi De bra I may have been a little too quick to judgement I think I have been overplaying,just been trying few Hanon Exercises on just the right hand and its much sweeter ,adding the bass side I think i'm using uneven pressure "must do better"

 

[Plinky]

Well, if you got the triplets in one key on a CBA, you get 4 other keys for free. And the fingering for diminished chords is just plunking down 4 buttons next to one another in a single horizontal row…

CBA !

far more buttons and far more complex than my brain could possibly deal with.​

I did consider it but as i,m familiar with a piano keyboard it seemed to make sense.​

 

[dak]

CBA !

far more buttons and far more complex than my brain could possibly deal with.​

Complex it isn't. Totally regular. Imagine playing a 4-fret 20-string guitar tuned in minor thirds. You can play it by ear without even figuring out what key you are in. That doesn't work with a piano keyboard.

I did consider it but as i,m familiar with a piano keyboard it seemed to make sense.​

I think I need to start selling my redundant instruments with some vengeance, just to get them into circulation here.

 

[dak]

Hi De bra I may have been a little too quick to judgement I think I have been overplaying,just been trying few Hanon Exercises on just the right hand and its much sweeter ,adding the bass side I think i'm using uneven pressure "must do better"

Common problem for newcomers, particularly with a piano/organ/whatever background is that they consider the bellows of secondary importance. It's the heart and soul of the accordion, like the bow is with the violin. In contrast to the violin, the bellows does not complain with screeching and rasping and whistling if you underestimate its importance, so it may take much longer (if at all) until it gets the necessary attention.

Without the bellows, all you have is a toy organ, not even a harmonium.

Maybe it's not the worst idea to focus on developing singing and melodic lines and development in the right hand first, and only then add the left hand and fight until you get back everything you already had with the right hand alone.

 

[Plinky]

Common problem for newcomers, particularly with a piano/organ/whatever background is that they consider the bellows of secondary importance. It's the heart and soul of the accordion, like the bow is with the violin. In contrast to the violin, the bellows does not complain with screeching and rasping and whistling if you underestimate its importance, so it may take much longer (if at all) until it gets the necessary attention.

Without the bellows, all you have is a toy organ, not even a harmonium.

Maybe it's not the worst idea to focus on developing singing and melodic lines and development in the right hand first, and only then add the left hand and fight until you get back everything you already had with the right hand alone.

I'm having to almost unlearn what I have learned, picking out melodies using bellows direction (melodeon) but its certainly starting to wain
I bought the accordion as a challenge in my retirement and it keeps my mind active and the chap said I,m coming along really well
But I,m hyper critical and a little obsessive ,but that has served me well in the past.

This is also the first box I,ve bought thats new and has new bellows all my vintage Hohners are airtight but nice and broken it and he said the bravo will play in with time or the over the knee stretch ,on the vintage my bellows control is much better.
thanks for the info ,Its all great fun

 

[dak]

I'm having to almost unlearn what I have learned, picking out melodies using bellows direction (melodeon) but its certainly starting to wain
I bought the accordion as a challenge in my retirement and it keeps my mind active and the chap said I,m coming along really well
But I,m hyper critical and a little obsessive ,but that has served me well in the past.

There is nothing wrong with being hypercritical and a little obsessive, but you may want to factor in half a dozen lessons per year with a good accordion teacher (not necessarily the same as a good player) in order to get your criticism and obsession focused on areas where they are most effective instead of a side show.

Another way of getting on track is recording yourself and then watching and comparing what you hear with recordings from others: where are differences that are, well, making a difference? How could you bring them out yourself?

This is also the first box I,ve bought thats new and has new bellows all my vintage Hohners are airtight but nice and broken it and he said the bravo will play in with time or the over the knee stretch ,on the vintage my bellows control is much better.
thanks for the info ,Its all great fun

A new bellows should not be all that stiff. Maybe check out the straps, and possibly see whether leaving off the bellows protector makes a significant difference. If it does, you may need a different kind/design.

 

[Plinky]

There is nothing wrong with being hypercritical and a little obsessive, but you may want to factor in half a dozen lessons per year with a good accordion teacher (not necessarily the same as a good player) in order to get your criticism and obsession focused on areas where they are most effective instead of a side show.

Another way of getting on track is recording yourself and then watching and comparing what you hear with recordings from others: where are differences that are, well, making a difference? How could you bring them out yourself?

A new bellows should not be all that stiff. Maybe check out the straps, and possibly see whether leaving off the bellows protector makes a significant difference. If it does, you may need a different kind/design.

will do many thanks

 

[Plinky]

Well, Hohner supposedly moved all the equipment they used in Germany to build (the lower end) accordions to China to use in the new factory. Of course that doesn't mean that this equipment is still being used today (if it ever was) or whether the Chinese workers were sufficiently trained to use the equipment.
(In a different post I read that when Excelsior stopped production in the USA they shipped all the equipment to Italy, to where the new Excelsior accordions would be built and I read that the equipment was never used there.)

Hi De Bra It's certainly a bit of a conundrum buying anything nowadays ​

And if you do find out its origin you can't really be sure of the quality​

I suppose in an ideal world one would buy a refurbished
German or Italian accordion from their heyday.
I did look at a paolo soprani but it had been poorly stored and was mouldy and the bellows were shot so I assumed the inside might
The same.
I think what I will take from this topic is to keep my eye out for quality vintage 50/60s box that's been fully refurbished.

 

[debra]

...
I think what I will take from this topic is to keep my eye out for quality vintage 50/60s box that's been fully refurbished.

Apart from a few very very expensive gems like a Scandalli Super VI or Hohner Gola from around 1960 most accordions that are over 60 years old will not be in great condition and will not be worth a lot. Your best bet to get a good accordion in good shape and not about to fall apart (or for instance have the reed plates fall off because the wax dried out) is an accordion that's between 25 and 35 years old. More recent accordions will either still be better but expensive or not expensive but cheap junk. Older accordions will suffer from dried out wax, stiff leathers and other signs of old age.

 

[dunlustin]

Plinky,

You might usefully have a word with this man:

About | Qualifications | Accordions South West

Over 50 years experience of repair and tuning accordions in Devon, with accordion repair qualifications and a long history of playing the instrument for myself.

www.squeezydoesit.com

How many technically competent, honest, gigging musicians do you know who also refurbish and sell accordions?

P.S. He's published a couple of accordion books too.

edited for grammar - yes, I know ...... sad!

 

[Plinky]

Plinky,

You might usefully have a word with this man:

About | Qualifications | Accordions South West

Over 50 years experience of repair and tuning accordions in Devon, with accordion repair qualifications and a long history of playing the instrument for myself.

www.squeezydoesit.com

How many technically competent, honest, gigging musicians do you know who also refurbishes and sells accordions?

P.S. He's published a couple of accordion books too.

 

[Plinky]

Hi Richard I did look on his site and as I'm definitely sticking with a 48 bass the Hohner student VM and Bravo are lighter than a Hohner club III melodeon!​

But I will drop him an email as it does say he has others in stock
Many thanks

 

[Plinky]

Plinky,

You might usefully have a word with this man:

About | Qualifications | Accordions South West

Over 50 years experience of repair and tuning accordions in Devon, with accordion repair qualifications and a long history of playing the instrument for myself.

www.squeezydoesit.com

How many technically competent, honest, gigging musicians do you know who also refurbish and sell accordions?

P.S. He's published a couple of accordion books too.

edited for grammar - yes, I know ...... sad!

I just got a reply he's got nothing in at the moment,but many thanks for the link

 

[Ventura]

a different perspective just occurred to me..

having noted several posts lately talking about how good the tone
is on those little red Hohners.. the old ones pre and post WW2 with
the gold bellows tape.. keys or buttons..

people still seek these out, and they are prized in certain areas
and types of music.. many are still going strong and worth fixing
up when they have a problem.. people are HAPPY to get their
hands on one and are using them professionally..

this contrasts to the Bravo question, by wondering if,
in 40 years, will
ANYONE
be wishing for or waxing poetic over or fixing up an old Bravo ?

kinda doubt it

maybe that explains what is wrong with them

 

[Plinky]

a different perspective just occurred to me..

having noted several posts lately talking about how good the tone
is on those little red Hohners.. the old ones pre and post WW2 with
the gold bellows tape.. keys or buttons..

people still seek these out, and they are prized in certain areas
and types of music.. many are still going strong and worth fixing
up when they have a problem.. people are HAPPY to get their
hands on one and are using them professionally..

this contrasts to the Bravo question, by wondering if,
in 40 years, will
ANYONE
be wishing for or waxing poetic over or fixing up an old Bravo ?

kinda doubt it

maybe that explains what is wrong with them

Hi ventura only time will tell I guess ,the budget range of Harmony oscar schmidt basically all those birch catalogue guitars were awful things ,little more than firewood but they have become collectors items purely because of age.

My vintage Hohner student is well constructed and it's a very light box and has that vintage charm ,but the action on the Bravo is considerably better and the bass a better match.
Treble and bass mechanisms are very smooth in comparison and bellows 18 folds v Student 14 so it's a much bigger box.

My one criticism was it was slightly raspy but that was my overplaying
As suggested I made a little video recording and I,m so used to the barking and honking of a Hohner 4 voice one row , just dialling back a little has made the world of difference,now It's a more refined sound.

It was recommended to buy the new "Silent Key" Bravo as it has several upgrades over its predecessor ,so I don't really have a comparison other than the vintage Student models
Would I buy it again now that I have the two vintage Hohners?

Yes, the more I play it the more I like it.
It does feel like a lot of work and design has gone into it,but it's still a pretty characterless instrument.
I would have no qualms in recommending someone buy one,but it definitely has that modern "utility feel" everything works really well ,it's perfectly in tune and airtight but where are the Bells and whistles?.

Ironically most of us won't be here in 40 years,and perhaps exactly the same conversation was had 40 years earlier
in 40 years when everything is 3D printed and digital ,someone will find it ,and say my Grandad used to play this .....reeds and wax ! ….Who knows

I hope you don't think this,an impertinent question but ,were you ever dropped by a Chinese nanny?or perhaps had food poisoning from a Chinese restaurant? bought a defective rickshaw?or a Chinese laundry lose your favourite suit?