What specifically is wrong ,with chinese built Hohner accordions?
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petch
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I've not tried many Chinese instruments but when I went to buy my first CBA 2 years ago the shop had a new Hohner Nova III 96 and a used older (but still in great condition) 120 bass Pigini for less than the new Hohner. Even as a complete beginner the difference between the two was noticeable. I've never tried one, but I can't imagine the £400-600 accordions on Thomann are that different to the Hohner
This is a brand that charges £500 for their 'XS' model, which is essentially a toy. I really believe you are just paying for the label with Hohner in 2024. Although to be fair there seems to be a trend with all makers for massively overcharging for their smallest, plastic accordions...
Hi Joe my idea was to buy something to see how I got on with it preferably with a proper warranty and I did a little research and asked a few people what they thought and the few I spoke to that actually owned a modern Hohner were happy with it and most of the negative responses were from people that had never played one and a couple pretty much thought everything Chinese was cheap and nasty
I suppose the only real test is see how it plays over the next year or so but fortunately I have been given a few lessons by wonderful player and in his hands it sounds like it cost a million dollars,but that might just be talent
Hi perch its a bit difficult for me as i,m at heart a traditionalist but as i,m 3d printing I'm becoming quite a fan of abs and as I said for things like pallets I think it has some preferable qualities over wood ,injection molding cases is probably a good idea its light strong and most accordions are basically plywood boxes wrapped in plastic anyway.
I certainly don't agree with your assertion the all things are equal from the same factory that's just not how it works
materials like aluminium are graded and various treatments such as anodising are options and one can chose dependant on requirements
and cost .
I'm sure that Hohner charge a bit more for that prestigious name but i think the Hohner warranty add a little value and the action and Silent key is very different from the other Chinese accordion I played and I thought the Hohner XS were built in germany so its german plastic or its imported parts and just assembled in germany
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
From a post by one of our members :
"My Roland FR4X piano accordion, now 3 years old, has lately developed a clackety-clack metallic sort of keyboard noise, particularly in the center 2/3's of the keyboard. They keys have come to move not only up and down but also side to side as I play. I play the thing almost daily, so I'm wondering if other players of that model Roland might also have experienced a similar disturbance. Additionally, I've noticed that the entire keyboard assembly apparently attaches to the body with staples or screws, and from there also I can see movement and hear creaky noises, sort of like it's beginning to work loose. I've contacted Roland about it and was told that such noises "are normal" and expected in time. Really? Anyone with similar experience?"
So, where are Roland FRx's made, anyone?
"My Roland FR4X piano accordion, now 3 years old, has lately developed a clackety-clack metallic sort of keyboard noise, particularly in the center 2/3's of the keyboard. They keys have come to move not only up and down but also side to side as I play. I play the thing almost daily, so I'm wondering if other players of that model Roland might also have experienced a similar disturbance. Additionally, I've noticed that the entire keyboard assembly apparently attaches to the body with staples or screws, and from there also I can see movement and hear creaky noises, sort of like it's beginning to work loose. I've contacted Roland about it and was told that such noises "are normal" and expected in time. Really? Anyone with similar experience?"
So, where are Roland FRx's made, anyone?
Hi Dingo that sounds like a really poorly manufactured instrument with multiple problems and only 3 years old “shocking”From a post by one of our members :
"My Roland FR4X piano accordion, now 3 years old, has lately developed a clackety-clack metallic sort of keyboard noise, particularly in the center 2/3's of the keyboard. They keys have come to move not only up and down but also side to side as I play. I play the thing almost daily, so I'm wondering if other players of that model Roland might also have experienced a similar disturbance. Additionally, I've noticed that the entire keyboard assembly apparently attaches to the body with staples or screws, and from there also I can see movement and hear creaky noises, sort of like it's beginning to work loose. I've contacted Roland about it and was told that such noises "are normal" and expected in time. Really? Anyone with similar experience?"
So, where are Roland FRx's made, anyone?
Zhejiang, Jiangsu, and Fujian provinces what factory in China was that accordion made then?
On a more serious note with a few exceptions it's very difficult to see the origins of components nowadays and this
“ If it's assembled in a certain country or it has components from that country it can have a made in approval” is not only a little confusing but a little misleading but with globalisation and Just in time manufacturing its just modern life.
I remember having to wait 2 weeks for a box of guitar strings to come in ,now they arrive next day
Dingo40
Been here for ages!
That's the whole point: this quote is not about a Chinese made instrument (as far as I know) but about a Roland electronic accordion with quite a few flaws. So where was that from?
Sorry Dingo It was just a joke I did know they are made in italy, I thought I was being ironicThat's the whole point: this quote is not about a Chinese made instrument (as far as I know) but about a Roland electronic accordion with quite a few flaws. So where was that from?
I still haven't really heard any specific issues with the mechanicals, materials etc and I really don't understand this idea that even if the new Hohners are made at the same factory that everything from the same factory is of the same quality .I buy fingerboards from the same supplier thats sells various quality grades and they are sourced from all over the world and thats just a fingerboard blank and lots of manufactures have a budget lines.
Its funny really as I bought a part recently that had a code stamp and after a little research ,i found it was priced very differently dependant on which brand it was used on.
I,m not talking pennies ,and it was used in almost all the major brands and pretty much a generic part
But it had a sticker over the original code stamp when it arrived and cost me a third of the price
It's the old pub grub joke...if you look working class it's a beef stew and £2.50 if you look well off it's beef bourguignon and its £3.75
Another factor having worked on a few vintage Hohner melodeons its certainly a gamble as you never know whats inside who has fiddled with it and how its been stored.
A full refurbishment,pallet facing, tune, re wax ,springs etc is very costly on a melodeon .I dread to think what it would cost on an accordion.
and I think if you're a beginner the last thing you need is a big bill after buying an old accordion.
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I have zero direct knowledge of this subject but have one comment based on a phone conversation with Hohner support some months ago concerning a non-accordion instrument. I asked about comments I had read questioning the quality of Hohner instruments built in China.
The Hohner support person told me their instruments built in China were made with Hohner equipment, to Hohner specs, and with some presence of Hohner representatives. She did not say if the ”presence” was on-site supervision, training, occasional QA inspection, or something else, nor did she provide other details. If someone is interested perhaps they could contact Hohner and ask more directed and intelligent questions.
JKJ
I'm not surprised that this is the response of Hohner support. I do believe that Hohner did ship their machines used in accordion making to China, essentially moving the factory over, and trained the first batch of workers to make accordions there.
As for the rest... I would be hard-pressed to believe much from a company that for decades pretended to build accordions in Germany that were in fact built in Italy (and some in the Czech Republic). And to this day there are stories of the Gola still being made entirely in Trossingen, Germany, whereas when you look inside recent Gola accordions they show striking similarity to high-end Italian accordions...
I'm not being negative about the quality of the Chinese-made Hohner accordions because of this but just look at the quality of what they end up delivering, not just in terms of the technical quality inside but also and mostly in terms of how these accordions sound (and feel to be played). Yes they are better than other Chinese rubbish, some of which I only tried at the Frankfurter Musikmesse when that still existed, and some of which I had in for service. And I'm not saying the Chinese Hohners are the worst accordions I have seen with a European brand name. The worst were certainly from Weltmeister, with soft-plastic reed block to which the wax didn't even stick properly to hold the reed plates on.
Hi JKJ
I think the perception of poor Chinese quality is because they make not only very bad products ,but also make very good products.
If one understands how the Chinese manufacturing system works it's a very different culture as everything is based on the customers price point.
I have watched the quality of Far Eastern instruments change immeasurably over the years but I think it's more the Distributors specifications.
The biggest issue I have personally had with Chinese instruments has not been components or build quality, but in that final quality control and I think this iron out any teething problem on the customer is pretty much standard for anything mass produced nowadays.
The one aspect I'm slowly coming round to is using newer materials .
On my final build I used Carbon Fibre Stiffening Rods I laminate all necks (Fairbanks/Vega style) slim V profile and had always used either a truss rod or t bar but this carbon fibre stuff is so incredibly strong and light ,so using ABS for various parts although not traditional is probably the way forward.
I use neoprene instead of leather for my bellows gaskets but I don't think there is a decent substitute for a shellac finish yet but give it time
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Hi De Bra as you are a repairer I think another part of the equation for a prospective purchaser is, if one is buying as “refurbished” that in itself is a complete minefield as it's very dependent on the competency of the work.
I spent a lot of time practising tuning old PA reeds and I still don't think I'm competent enough to tune anyone's else's box ,and I destroyed dozens of reeds just to get to the point where I will tune the Bell Hohner.
It was dirt cheap £75 and the reeds are relatively clean and just need a slight tweak.
I still consider tuning and getting the reeds to speak ,something of a dark art, and the absolute horror stories associated with diy fettlers, abound
Crazy things accordions/melodeons can look wonderful from the outside and be a complete basket case inside.
I think accordions are actually quite difficult to buy as a beginner because they are quite complex anyway so are far more expensive than something like an entry level guitar or keyboard,and £2500 for an Italian 48 bass is probably the best choice but so many people take up something ,only to then lose interest.
They used special wax recipes for those IIRC. I think that the reed blocks were actually less problematic than the plastic bass mechanics which had a tendency to break with age. Their high-end instruments retained wood reedblocks. I am not sure whether they still use plastic more than others these days: it would seem to mismatch their pricing/image goals, never mind the technical properties and justifications.
The first accordion I ever bought was a "Capriole" from the time before the GDR consolidation of manufacturers, 4/5 reeds, 37/96, wood reedblocks, wooden key cores, wire mechanics and other stuff you'd consider normal. It was so-so in tune and very cheap (70DM or so). Ultimately I got myself an 41/120 4/4 "Universum" Weltmeister in perfect tune (because that was more affordable than a tuning job) and sold it again at a loss because it failed to knock my socks off. Instead I had the Capriole restored and tuned. It's still around in the family (I "lent" it to a niece since I would not have been able to recover the bulk of the cost) and is actually a pretty solid performer with a nice sound quality. Certainly can more than hold its own against, say, a Hohner Atlantic IV deLuxe.
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Just to say how much I am enjoying this conversation.
Well, Alfred Mirek's accordion tutor book states that you need a minimum 3/4 instrument for it and from memory, most beginner bayan repertoire range exceeds 2 octaves once you've played the instrument for 2-3 months. A 48 bass is a niche instrument that's probably quite detached from its full-sized brother if you ask me, but I'm certainly no expert. And the prices on 48 basses are bloated.
You raise a good point about severe lack of student instruments. And it's not just how and where things are manufactured - it's the design too. I reckon a full-sized box with 3/4 range and two voices in unison in the right + 3 voices in the left will go a very long way if the reeds are really good quality. No registers, no switches, no extra bells & whistles, just a basic but good quality instrument. If these were available for under £1k, they'd sort the problem of student level boxes. But I guess they'd eat into the manufacturers' profits quite a bit.
You raise a good point about severe lack of student instruments. And it's not just how and where things are manufactured - it's the design too. I reckon a full-sized box with 3/4 range and two voices in unison in the right + 3 voices in the left will go a very long way if the reeds are really good quality. No registers, no switches, no extra bells & whistles, just a basic but good quality instrument. If these were available for under £1k, they'd sort the problem of student level boxes. But I guess they'd eat into the manufacturers' profits quite a bit.
My point was that the leg position used here makes up for some shortage of instrument.
Hi tcabot I think it is just a different perspective on instruments and how they are used.
What I find most inspiring are the musicians that seem to take their instrument to another level, I'm thinking the likes of Tommy Emmanuel,Jerry Douglas,Hilary Hahn,Glenn gould Roy smeck Davy spillane,Mary Bergin and I added Sandy Brechin
At 3.52 he plays with such gusto
I have no concept of how well you play,you might even go on the list but I'm mid 60s and I think it's going to take quite a while to play anything like as fluent as this ,and one of my reasons for buying the Hohner student VM 48 was, it's what he's playing so the only hurdle to playing something approaching this ,is practice and ability.
The retired professional accordionist that has given me a few lessons and comes pretty close ,plays just about all genres effortlessly ,but I just don't have 50 years left to practise so my thoughts factoring in the time restraints is. learn one style in the traditional keys and hopefully play it quite well ,opposed to trying to play everything poorly.
I have played a 120 bass and it's really not for me I like being able to “not exactly throw it around” but play with a bounce and it feels more comfortable a bit like my melodeons and my god it was so heavy it must have been three time the weight of the Hohner student.
I have never heard of Alfred Mirek's and if as you say his accordion tutor may states that you need a minimum 3/4 instrument
In my school books, Pluto was a planet Pluto is now technically a “dwarf planet,”
So I wouldn't believe everything you read in books
OuijaBoard
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]]]]Well, Alfred Mirek's accordion tutor book states that you need a minimum 3/4 instrument for it and from memory, most beginner bayan repertoire range exceeds 2 octaves once you've played the instrument for 2-3 months. A 48 bass is a niche instrument that's probably quite detached from its full-sized brother if you ask me, but I'm certainly no expert. And the prices on 48 basses are bloated.[[[[
It all depends on what genre(s) of music you're seeking to play. Huge swaths of world folk/roots/trad, even jazz genres can be brilliantly done with 30 and yes, with 26 PA treble notes. Same with 72, 60, and yes, 48 bass notes. There is zero need to be chained to a giant refrigerator to make fantastic accordion music in many genres, unless you want that. Some people want the "wearable organ" type experience for the types of music they play, or the organ-like timbre of a huge, bazillion-register cassotto instrument, and that's great. But it is not the only or the "highest and best" use of this instrument.
If you're talking about CBA, I use an Asian Hohner 30-treble 3-row 48-bass CBA specifically for outdoor festival performances of Scottish trad where there is a lot of walking and schlepping and a bit of anxiety about security. It has all the notes and chords I'd ever use in that roots genre, it has a folk/roots MM sound very close to the old German Hohners, and it responds and feels fine. Oh, and it weighs 11.5 pounds.
I do prefer 30 treble for things like Scottish, Paris musette, tango, etc. But Irish trad I can play perfectly fine on a 26-key PA, as Irish tunes do little below "middle B."-- same with many other styles I don't play, such as Tex-Mex/Norteno or zydeco.
It all depends on what genre(s) of music you're seeking to play. Huge swaths of world folk/roots/trad, even jazz genres can be brilliantly done with 30 and yes, with 26 PA treble notes. Same with 72, 60, and yes, 48 bass notes. There is zero need to be chained to a giant refrigerator to make fantastic accordion music in many genres, unless you want that. Some people want the "wearable organ" type experience for the types of music they play, or the organ-like timbre of a huge, bazillion-register cassotto instrument, and that's great. But it is not the only or the "highest and best" use of this instrument.
If you're talking about CBA, I use an Asian Hohner 30-treble 3-row 48-bass CBA specifically for outdoor festival performances of Scottish trad where there is a lot of walking and schlepping and a bit of anxiety about security. It has all the notes and chords I'd ever use in that roots genre, it has a folk/roots MM sound very close to the old German Hohners, and it responds and feels fine. Oh, and it weighs 11.5 pounds.
I do prefer 30 treble for things like Scottish, Paris musette, tango, etc. But Irish trad I can play perfectly fine on a 26-key PA, as Irish tunes do little below "middle B."-- same with many other styles I don't play, such as Tex-Mex/Norteno or zydeco.
