Best New Mid-price Piano Accordion (opinions)
- Thread starter Eddy Yates
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OuijaBoard
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[[[I don't think so. If I'm not mistaken, his accordion was steam powered with steam powered cymbals and drums attached. You should have seen him shoveling coal into that thing while playing .]]]
Kimric Smythe, are you listening?!?
Kimric Smythe, are you listening?!?
Eddy Yates
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Paul,Ldebra said:
Thanks for this explanation which I’ve never heard before. I just read a description of a classic accordion that mentioned “creative use of different makes of reeds “, but it never mentioned why. Do you suppose that with great knowledge of the sound of different brands of reeds a builder or technician could actually even out the treble of a non-cassotto accordion?
Eddy Yates said:
Never thought of that, but as different makes and types of reeds produce different sound that difference might potentially be used to compensate the differences caused by the position of a reed block in the accordion. Still, I think it is better to construct an accordion in such a way that the position of reed blocks does not cause an unwanted difference in sound.
Actually, 3-voice accordions (typically LMM) do not require a lot of space for the reed blocks so all can be placed under the grille and the space that would be obstructed by the keyboard and register switches can remain unused. The trouble only starts with 4-voice accordions. The sound can be obstructed (muffled) by keyboard and registers but also the pallets may not open far enough to give the same sound between different reed blocks.
So both cassotto accordions (with position in cassotto making a difference) and non-cassotto accordions have problems to even out the sound between different reed blocks that should ideally produce the same sound.
Alan Sharkis
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To all who might be interested, I asked Marco Cingalia of the Bugari EVO division several questions about the future of the division. I also asked flat out if Bugari was sold to Parrot. Heres his reply:
Hello Alan, our Bugari EVO team is working in a new baby project. This new project will be available only for Chinese market and it will be assembled in China because PARROT is the investitor for this project. The brand will be RONNIE DA name: PRIMA P34 (piano keyboard 34 keys) 72 Bass - PRIMA B46 (button keyboard 46 buttons). We will start the pre production at the end of March 2019. Next year (maybe January) we will announce the Bugari EVO MIA 37 Keys/B46 button 96 Bass&Chord. This product will be produced and assembled in Italy with all materials came from Italy. Of course different price... Both project will have a new technology caming from our Bugari EVO team (no Roland electronic parts). About PARROT there is a big cooperation with them to have in the market many and different kind of products: low-priced models, medium-priced models, and High quality model coming from our factory. This cooperation will be strategic because PARROT will invest a lot of money in our factory to improve new working machines and more employes.
The Bugari company is and will be under control of Italian management. Have a nice evening!!!!
Make of it what you will.
Alan Sharkis
Hello Alan, our Bugari EVO team is working in a new baby project. This new project will be available only for Chinese market and it will be assembled in China because PARROT is the investitor for this project. The brand will be RONNIE DA name: PRIMA P34 (piano keyboard 34 keys) 72 Bass - PRIMA B46 (button keyboard 46 buttons). We will start the pre production at the end of March 2019. Next year (maybe January) we will announce the Bugari EVO MIA 37 Keys/B46 button 96 Bass&Chord. This product will be produced and assembled in Italy with all materials came from Italy. Of course different price... Both project will have a new technology caming from our Bugari EVO team (no Roland electronic parts). About PARROT there is a big cooperation with them to have in the market many and different kind of products: low-priced models, medium-priced models, and High quality model coming from our factory. This cooperation will be strategic because PARROT will invest a lot of money in our factory to improve new working machines and more employes.
The Bugari company is and will be under control of Italian management. Have a nice evening!!!!
Make of it what you will.
Alan Sharkis
OuijaBoard pid=64233 dateline=1551355089 said:
Alan Sharkis pid=64364 dateline=1552345248 said:
PARROT will invest a lot of money in our factory to improve new working machines and more employees.- maybe that is the short answer?
Not sure how Bugari will be able to deal with the loss of some experienced craftsmen.
Eddy Yates
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I guess we can be hopeful and cautious. The best result would be low cost but reliable accordions, encouraging more people to play. The worst result......low cost crappy accordions, discouraging people and wasting resources. Yamaha took over Bösendorfer pianos, gave them a lot of money and said, “Do what you’ve been doing only do it better,” and the company did exactly that.
Reading “Piano Accordion Owner’s Manual and Buying Guide” by George Bachich, a great resource. He has a chapter on Chinese accordions. His summary is hopeful, and he says don’t be afraid to buy Chinese accordions but inspect them carefully. My fear would be that a lot of parts would be made in China of inferior quality and materials. Chinese screws are uniformly bad.
Reading “Piano Accordion Owner’s Manual and Buying Guide” by George Bachich, a great resource. He has a chapter on Chinese accordions. His summary is hopeful, and he says don’t be afraid to buy Chinese accordions but inspect them carefully. My fear would be that a lot of parts would be made in China of inferior quality and materials. Chinese screws are uniformly bad.
StargazerTony
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Well, Eddy (and others) make good points when they say one has to evaluate each accordion individually. Some condemn Chinese accordions simply because they are Chinese, the same way Japanese items were condemned in the 1950 and 1960. I don't think that's quite fair. I've played a Parriot (34/72 LMM) and while not up to the standards of a fine Italian, it's completely usable and functional, and for less than $700 USD.
Some pan Weltmeisters. Now perhaps that's from their old GDR days but current ones like the Pearl, Rubin, Juwel and the Achat are all decent and sell new for under $2000 USD and one rarely finds a used one of these for sale, At least not here in the USA.
If I had my choice, of course I would like a fine Italian box with hand made reeds and such but for some one of my age and accordion skill set, paying that much would be folly.
Some pan Weltmeisters. Now perhaps that's from their old GDR days but current ones like the Pearl, Rubin, Juwel and the Achat are all decent and sell new for under $2000 USD and one rarely finds a used one of these for sale, At least not here in the USA.
If I had my choice, of course I would like a fine Italian box with hand made reeds and such but for some one of my age and accordion skill set, paying that much would be folly.
Alan Sharkis
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My comment after posting the response from Marco was, Make of it what you will. I didnt add what I make of it, so Ill do that now.
Parrot invested a lot of money in Bugari. We cant tell from Marcos message to me whether the additional personnel would be Italian or Chinese. For the life of me, I cant picture Chinese workers coming to Italy, assuming that the factory remains in Italy.
Bugari can gain considerable additional market in China (they already have a presence there) if Parrot helps to promote Bugari sales in China, and again, this is not clear from Marcos response. If so, then Parrot has gained, de facto, a high-end line of accordions to sell in China, again assuming that Parrot also gains some portion of the proceeds from those sales.
On the other hand, the history of hypothetical Company A investing in hypothetical Company B has been that Company As management and workers remain as they were for one-to-two years. If sales and profits remain strong at that time, Company As management and workers remain as they were. If not, Company As management and workers get the blame AND the axe. Company B might continue to use Company As tradename on its products if that was the agreement. Again, I dont know if this is the situation with Bugari and Parrot, but it is common.
Alan Sharkis
Parrot invested a lot of money in Bugari. We cant tell from Marcos message to me whether the additional personnel would be Italian or Chinese. For the life of me, I cant picture Chinese workers coming to Italy, assuming that the factory remains in Italy.
Bugari can gain considerable additional market in China (they already have a presence there) if Parrot helps to promote Bugari sales in China, and again, this is not clear from Marcos response. If so, then Parrot has gained, de facto, a high-end line of accordions to sell in China, again assuming that Parrot also gains some portion of the proceeds from those sales.
On the other hand, the history of hypothetical Company A investing in hypothetical Company B has been that Company As management and workers remain as they were for one-to-two years. If sales and profits remain strong at that time, Company As management and workers remain as they were. If not, Company As management and workers get the blame AND the axe. Company B might continue to use Company As tradename on its products if that was the agreement. Again, I dont know if this is the situation with Bugari and Parrot, but it is common.
Alan Sharkis
lispinini pid=64367 dateline=1552360889 said:
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OK, accepting the invitation to "make what one will" of that reply from Signor Cingalia at Bugari . . . What I make of it is a classic example of a non-answer via evasive parsing. Well, there is an answer there, which is that Parrot has purchased Bugari and the venture is by no means limited to the Bugari EVO electronic products. We may also surmise that some of the acoustic product coming into the world with the Bugari name on it, will now essentially be Parrot accordions.
I suspect the trajectory of Hohner after it went under Asian ownership, is a good exemplar of how the Bugari/Parrott scenario is going to go.
I suspect the trajectory of Hohner after it went under Asian ownership, is a good exemplar of how the Bugari/Parrott scenario is going to go.
Alan Sharkis pid=64382 dateline=1552418895 said:
Chinese investors have shown their interest in acquiring Italian accordion makers for a long time, and one of their aims is to transfer the technology/ craftsmanship to the Chinese brands. Several big brands have been approached by the Chinese, but the Italians were very reluctant to hand over their business despite some brilliant offers. I was told by the owner of a reputable brand that the offer they got exceeded the profits they would be able to make in the whole century and it was the brand name that was worth the money. However, the offer was not attractive without a reason. Part of the deal was that the staff would have to stay in China for a period of time and teach them the proper way to do things, which was not that easy for Italians.
As for the quality of Chinese instruments, I would say I still wouldnt buy one. I have repaired quite a few recent Chinese makes ( less than 10 years old). A few were double cassotto models made for the conservatories. A brand new 120 stradella bass Chinese double cassotto piano accordion costs about 1800 Euros with authentic Cagnoni Tipo A Mano reeds. Yes, they do function well for the first few years, but it doesnt take long to see issues. My experience with some professional grade Chinese accordions is that they tend to adopt the features from different European makers. They wax the reed blocks as the Italians do. The pallets are held by plastic as in the French accordions. The reed blocks have the same rectangular shape as in the Russian bayans. They managed to do all these quite well. But when you look closely to how these accordions were made, you see some problems. For example, faux leather instead of leather is used in bellow corners. All treble valves on the reeds are plastic (including the lower notes). The reeds are tuned by machine gears so you see big dents on all of them, and of course- you dont expect great sound coming out of it. They also tend to have problems with the aluminium arms which hold the pallets. Some of them just keep causing air leaks. Some cassotto instruments have tightly sealed cassotto boxes and I had no idea how to open them for repair. A few manufacturers still havent learned that they need different springs for black vs white keys and cassotto vs non-cassotto instruments. There are also many minor problems such as fitting of felts, grill design etc which upset me enough.
I am lucky(unlucky) enough to live only 45 minutes away from China and it was easy to look for accordion parts. I used to have a suspicion that Carini in Italy bought many of their non-technical products from the Chinese factories, but if you look at something simple as a bass button in China, there is still a quality difference.
Also in China, it is not difficult to find a fake Pigini or a fake Bugari, but nothing inside the accordion is up to the standard.
Here is a Paolo Soprani with Bugari grill design. It has an Italian price tag (~3300 EUR), and an Italian flag on the accordion. You wont be able to find the Made in Italy tag on it because it isnt. The bass register is quite interesting as well.
https://world.taobao.com/item/585459904302.htm
You can buy an expensive, but good quality used Italian accordion and play it for years. If you keep it well and dont overuse it, you still get a decent value when you sell it. You get the nice sound out of it and you enjoy it. A Chinese accordion may last 4-5 years, then you start to get multiple issues, and eventually, the cost of repair will outweigh the cost of the accordion itself, let alone the resell value. I personally havent found a Chinese accordion with nice sound from the cassotto yet, but some people like the bright sound of them.
Alan Sharkis
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OuijaBoard pid=64384 dateline=1552450331 said:
Parrot has NOT bought Bugari. They have invested a large sum of money in the company and that will pay off in terms of their having a line of high quality Italian accordions to sell in China. Yes, its true that money talks, and there will be some influence exerted on Bugari by Parrot, but ownership will still be Bugaris. The factory isnt moving to China and Chinese workers are not coming to the factory in Italy.lispinini pid=64385 dateline=1552450795 said:
Think of it this way: An American corporation is owned by stockholders. If another company invests in that corporation, they do so by purchasing a large block of the corporations stock. But the corporation is still the corporation. A merger is an entirely different matter, and would take legal action to happen in most cases.
Alan Sharkis
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The Bugari gent's reply did not say the concern would continue to be "owned" by Italian Bugari. He said it would remain, "under control of Italian management." I read that to indicate the company has been bought by Parrot, and for the time being at least, Italians will remain the managers. This is the reason for the distress in Castelfidardo, and the exodus of workers from the factory. It doesn't mean there will be no more fine Italian-produced accordions coming out of that factory. How it all shakes out remains to be seen.
Quote:
Also in China, it is not difficult to find a fake Pigini or a fake Bugari, but nothing inside the accordion is up to the standard.
Here is a Paolo Soprani with Bugari grill design. It has an Italian price tag (~3300 EUR), and an Italian flag on the accordion. You wont be able to find the Made in Italy tag on it because it isnt. The bass register is quite interesting as well.
https://world.taobao.com/item/585459904302.htm
end Quote.
Wow, I never saw such a fake instrument. I wonder why the fakes are not done better (a Paolo Soprani would never have a Bugari grille) but it means we cannot trust brand names we see on accordions. Interesting it does not sake Made in Italy as on a fake you can pretty much write whatever you want. Even the Hohner Morino accordions that were made by Excelsior for decades, in Italy, all said Made in Germany (and maybe a bit of final assembly was still done in Germany as they needed to be able to show some manufacturing to visitors of the factory in Trossingen). Of course many of us also remember the TV and other commercials for Opel cars as Its a German when the cars were 100% american design and mostly american parts and only assembled in Germany (at least that was still true after they closed factories in other countries)...
I hope we can continue to at least trust our dealers who claim to get the accordions straight from the factory in Italy (and some even go there a few times per year to collect and transport the instruments themselves)...
So much for the OP asking for a new mid-price instrument. Its looking more and more that with a new instrument you need to be much more careful to make sure it is genuine than with an instrument that is 10 years old or more... and it is more and more important to always inspect an accordion on the inside to detect possible problems.
Also in China, it is not difficult to find a fake Pigini or a fake Bugari, but nothing inside the accordion is up to the standard.
Here is a Paolo Soprani with Bugari grill design. It has an Italian price tag (~3300 EUR), and an Italian flag on the accordion. You wont be able to find the Made in Italy tag on it because it isnt. The bass register is quite interesting as well.
https://world.taobao.com/item/585459904302.htm
end Quote.
Wow, I never saw such a fake instrument. I wonder why the fakes are not done better (a Paolo Soprani would never have a Bugari grille) but it means we cannot trust brand names we see on accordions. Interesting it does not sake Made in Italy as on a fake you can pretty much write whatever you want. Even the Hohner Morino accordions that were made by Excelsior for decades, in Italy, all said Made in Germany (and maybe a bit of final assembly was still done in Germany as they needed to be able to show some manufacturing to visitors of the factory in Trossingen). Of course many of us also remember the TV and other commercials for Opel cars as Its a German when the cars were 100% american design and mostly american parts and only assembled in Germany (at least that was still true after they closed factories in other countries)...
I hope we can continue to at least trust our dealers who claim to get the accordions straight from the factory in Italy (and some even go there a few times per year to collect and transport the instruments themselves)...
So much for the OP asking for a new mid-price instrument. Its looking more and more that with a new instrument you need to be much more careful to make sure it is genuine than with an instrument that is 10 years old or more... and it is more and more important to always inspect an accordion on the inside to detect possible problems.
Eddy Yates
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debra pid=64401 dateline=1552555843 said:
Right, Paul. This discussion has actually caused me to slow down in picking a new accordion. Also talking to Zevy made me determined to make an excursion to New Jersey and Philadelphia to try accordions and inspect any that seriously interest me.
OuijaBoard
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This interestingly ties in with my plaintive query in the "Accordion Makes" section for information about current Paolo Sopranis. Which to date is still unanswered. I got on to the question because I've been interested in the PS Professionale models supposedly made in Italy, for which there seem to be no info, reviews, or commentary out there. Viewing a demo of one on YouTube, I saw a comment posted in Italian or Spanish that the instrument looked Chinese. Which prompted my search for information, to no avail. The Italian character demoing PS Professionales on YouTube is a Castelfidardo rep also findable demo-ing E. Soprani, which we know are Asian or has a significant component of production in Asia. That doesn't mean the Paolo Soprani Professionales are not Italy-made as billed by more than one reputable dealer--at least they don't have Bugari grilles---but one would like some hard information.
All this is most uneasy-making.
RE that fake Paolo Soprani---Where did the Chinese get that Bugari grille? Are Bugari grilles and other substantial parts beyond small fittings, such as the entire housing, already done in Asia? Where does this all end? Who are the dealers who a) Have the hard information; and b) Can be depended on to give it to the shopper straight?
All this is most uneasy-making.
RE that fake Paolo Soprani---Where did the Chinese get that Bugari grille? Are Bugari grilles and other substantial parts beyond small fittings, such as the entire housing, already done in Asia? Where does this all end? Who are the dealers who a) Have the hard information; and b) Can be depended on to give it to the shopper straight?
debra pid=64401 dateline=1552555843 said:
I think it is quite expensive to design a nice grille like the Italian ones. The accordion grille is one feature that tells me whether it is Chinese. The fake Bugari grille above is probably the most complicated I have seen on a Chinese accordion. Even for the newest Chinese accordions, 99% of them still have sort of minimalistic grilles (Something similar to a Pigini Sirius).
Here is an example:
https://world.taobao.com/item/555222555504.htm
The North Korean grilles are usually more Italian. They have better acoustic quality than Chinese instruments, but similarly, they pretend to be Italian in some ways without putting the Made in Italy tag on.
https://world.taobao.com/item/552382589454.htm
https://world.taobao.com/item/38633782951.htm?spm=a21wu.11804641.1.2
Please note that the Polverini Accordions above have nothing to do with the Polverini in Italy.
The professional Chinese musicians have seen enough counterfeits and they know what an Italian accordion looks like. These accordions are made for students.
OuijaBoard pid=64412 dateline=1552600095 said:
I am not sure about Paolo Soprani, and I could not find their factory/ showroom in Castelfidardo. However, the old factory has become apartments and it is also where the only music shop in Castelfidardo is at (Castelfidardo Musica). This shop sells many accordions from the East, including E. Soprani (Chinese) and Moreschi (Korean). There are also some Scandalli and Paolo Soprani accordions, but this was really the only place where I saw some Paolo Soprani in Italy.
Talking about the fake Bugari grille, it is made by the oldest accordion maker in China. The grille itself is definitely not the same as the ones Bugari and I am sure they dont make the grilles for Bugari. It is not uncommon that Italian accordion manufacturers steal someones design too, and in my opinion, I am more worried about the brand name itself than the grille.
Often when a factory closes the brand name is sold off to a different company so the name lives on. Sometimes it's also more like a takeover (think of Excelsior being bought by Pigini). Sometimes a company just stops producing either a type of accordion (or all of them) and subcontracts someone else to make the accordions for them (think of Hohner contracting Excelsior to build the Morino). The result can thus be that accordions of a certain brand remain on the market but you need to dig deep enough to find out who makes them (legally, without it being a rip-off just using the name).lispinini said:
For instance, something happened to Fisart/Vignoni, causing production to move to an already existing accordion factory in France. The Vignoni website still lists an address in Castelfidardo that was an abandoned building (for sale) when I visited the place last fall.
When a name is just "abandoned" nobody is really looking after it any more to prevent someone else to start using the name to produce new things under the old name. I fear that this is what is happening to the Paolo Soprani name being used by a Chinese factory to produce the fake Soprani with fake Bugari grille...
JeffJetton
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debra pid=64135 dateline=1550843877 said:
And I dont think they make them anymore. At least its no longer on their website: https://akkordeonmanufaktur.de/
Maybe that was a change they made when they were reborn/restructured back in 2017?
OuijaBoard
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Wasn't/isn't the Supita high-end/high-priced rather than in the mid-priced category? My local accordion tech reports the Welt Supita is a big favorite among the Armenian PA virtuosos in my Left Coast megalopolis' substantial Armenian community. I was given to understand these are premium, blue-chip, very expensive rocket ships . . .
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