Live and Loud - Feedback Please

[jozz]

good to hear, which system did you go for?

Won't masking tape harden and crack in time? Most of what I've seen used is strips of ductape, mostly the transparant kind that you can use on tents, so that's what I used as well in my own install, works okay for me. In my Bugari they used standard black insulation tape, I think factory installed. Also works. Both of my mic'ed up accordion have cloth inlaid bellows though. Maybe bare cardboard needs something else?

 

[Mr Mark]

good to hear, which system did you go for?

Won't masking tape harden and crack in time? Most of what I've seen used is strips of ductape, mostly the transparant kind that you can use on tents, so that's what I used as well in my own install, works okay for me. In my Bugari they used standard black insulation tape, I think factory installed. Also works. Both of my mic'ed up accordion have cloth inlaid bellows though. Maybe bare cardboard needs something else?

I got the 4 treble 2 bass version.  The delivery was actually a little late and I was literally about to head out the door and buy a 1/4” jack and butcher my sm58 to try the capsule method when it came.

I don’t know where I read masking tape - it’s been a couple years but I recall it had something to do with paper bellows.  Maybe I read it wrong.  But I definitely wouldn’t recommend it!!

The fun part has been sifting out the bellows ‘tape’ from my search results.  

Also fun was the fact the battery location ended up being somewhat wrong and really difficult to fix.  

My only gripe is maybe there is a better way to do the connectors so a person doesn’t have to drill such a large hole in the soundboards - also with these types of mic’s I wish the wires were held by more than solder so I’m not so stressed about creating a bad solder joint or worse when installing,  because I’m absolutely terrible with solder and have screwed this up before, not this time probably thanks in part to the solid solder in the first place!

 

[Mr Mark]

Alas, the bass side of the accordion is not done justice with this kind of microphone configuration.  It should be obvious why and now I feel stupid haha (a mic in one end will not pick up the other end).  Really disappointing with that side but at least the treble will be heard and I do not have to stand in front of a mic.

 

[jozz]

how did you point the bass mics? there are several ways to do this

mine are close to and pointed to the casing and pickup indirectly

 

[debra]

... My only gripe is maybe there is a better way to do the connectors so a person doesn’t have to drill such a large hole in the soundboards - also with these types of mic’s I wish the wires were held by more than solder so I’m not so stressed about creating a bad solder joint or worse when installing,  because I’m absolutely terrible with solder and have screwed this up before, not this time probably thanks in part to the solid solder in the first place!

I would definitely always undo the wires from any connectors and drill a hole just big enough for the wires (and then fill with hot glue). It may mean you have to do soldering but that is a valuable skill to learn to do properly so you never end up with a bad solder joint.

 

[Mr Mark]

Jozz - They are installed a the bottom end of the bass section - due to physical space constraints they can only go top or bottom (when looking at the accordion as it is being played top or bottom).  Ideally these would go somewhere in the middle but there is no room here.  There is a large degree of decibel difference in how these actually pickup depending on how far away the reed is sounding that is for sure.  I really have to think better about how I do this moving forward, for as much as the bass section isn't needed (we have a bass player and its probably best to stay away from muddying that end) it would be great for those passages that it is.  I want to try the dynamic approach but after watching another band play with a Roland and factory mics I'm fairly convinced I need to go that route or a nice Hohner with the same idea (factory mics)...just have to sell a kidney first.  The opening act was playing a really nice 120 (couldn't make out the name) and he just stood in front of a mic stand, so I don't feel so bad about mic issues.

Kidding aside, I was definitely getting a lot of distortion through the monitors during soundcheck I hadn't really noticed before...(my IEM didn't get used as I thought floor monitors would suffice, I couldn't hear anything during the set so I won't make that MISTAKE again )...anyhow, the distortion was definitely reproduced today at home when run through various configurations (two different amps/monitors...with and without DI...XLR or 1/4"...wireless and wired...).  I don't suppose I had enough time to really thoroughly check stuff before the show but am just wondering how low you actually are turning the volume on the treble side of things as even with just minimal volume setting (and the other end on the DI or amp/monitor turned loud enough for minimal amplification) I cannot get a clean signal.  All the other issues I can live with for now however this one not so much.  

I appreciate the help!


debra - I really need a soldering course where I can mangle someone else's things with solder for a week   .  The last time I tried soldering something (desoldering and resoldering) it was so bad that after about an hour of trying to remove the old solder and failing I ended up just drilling the hole out in the circuit board as I could not get the old solder off.  It didn't do wonders for the circuit board needless to say.  I spent a bit of money buying lots of stuff to make that happen (helping hands, copper wick, new gun, etc) but also to no avail haha!  Anyhow, the hot glue is a better idea than the silicon I ended up using - but I did manage to seal things up very well once again.

 

[JerryPH]

One could probably add a "pots switch" (adjustable volume knob) to it somewhere in line and since it is something that doesn't need constant attention, it could be set up once and left inside the accordion... or one could route it and install it on the grill where you could adjust to taste.

 

[JerryPH]

One question for anyone who has done this - what is the best tape to use for taping the wire to the bellows?  I have used masking tape in the past (could have swore I read that was what to use somewhere) but found that didn't last and left a terrible sticky mess everywhere.

You want to use gaffer's tape.  It's found mostly on photography stores... it's used to hold things together without leaving residue.. but even over long time it leaves residue that is easier to come off.

 

[jozz]

Kidding aside, I was definitely getting a lot of distortion through the monitors during soundcheck I hadn't really noticed before...(my IEM didn't get used as I thought floor monitors would suffice, I couldn't hear anything during the set so I won't make that MISTAKE again )...anyhow, the distortion was definitely reproduced today at home when run through various configurations (two different amps/monitors...with and without DI...XLR or 1/4"...wireless and wired...).  I don't suppose I had enough time to really thoroughly check stuff before the show but am just wondering how low you actually are turning the volume on the treble side of things as even with just minimal volume setting (and the other end on the DI or amp/monitor turned loud enough for minimal amplification) I cannot get a clean signal.  All the other issues I can live with for now however this one not so much.  

I appreciate the help!

Sounds like you are amplifying noise? What kind of distortion is it, or maybe it is feedback?

How "hot" are you running the preamp circuit? I set my pots at the lowest setting possible so it evens out the proximity effect a little. There usually is a balance point somewhere on the pot scale, where you pickup enough signal without picking up lots of environment. I set mine at 40% on the midifisa system and nearing 60% on the "italian" systems. Then you just leave it and set correct level at the mixer. This way when I still had my Hohner I had okay-ish bass side, with only one capsule at the bottom.

Maybe you need to pad your DI (-20db toggle)? I had a bad signal once and tore my system apart only to find later on it was a bad DI box. If you go into a DI you should need only minimal gain on the amp/mixer (if any). If I go into an amp I go straight in, because the 9v preamp of the mic system is more than enough. If you put a DI in between you and the amp you will surely be running a little hot-ish risking distortion. It certainly is worth it to attend to a little gain staging.

Can you sum up the exact stuff you have in your chain from accordion to speaker? And how it is set?

 

[Mr Mark]

Sounds like you are amplifying noise? What kind of distortion is it, or maybe it is feedback?

How "hot" are you running the preamp circuit? I set my pots at the lowest setting possible so it evens out the proximity effect a little. There usually is a balance point somewhere on the pot scale, where you pickup enough signal without picking up lots of environment. I set mine at 40% on the midifisa system and nearing 60% on the "italian" systems. Then you just leave it and set correct level at the mixer. This way when I still had my Hohner I had okay-ish bass side, with only one capsule at the bottom.

Maybe you need to pad your DI (-20db toggle)? I had a bad signal once and tore my system apart only to find later on it was a bad DI box. If you go into a DI you should need only minimal gain on the amp/mixer (if any). If I go into an amp I go straight in, because the 9v preamp of the mic system is more than enough. If you put a DI in between you and the amp you will surely be running a little hot-ish risking distortion. It certainly is worth it to attend to a little gain staging.

Can you sum up the exact stuff you have in your chain from accordion to speaker? And how it is set?

There is a distortion in the treble circuit.  This distortion does not exist on the bass side.

Even when running the treble pot as low as possible there is distortion (digital).

I have tried all sorts of combinations to eliminate the possibility of bad cables, DI box, different inputs on monitors, different monitors and/or computer inputs.

1/4" balanced or 1/4" unbalanced from the accordion >

 > DI Box (LR Baggs Para Acoustic DI) > (XLR out or 1/4" out (balanced & unbalanced) > powered speaker (Lo or Hi Z inputs) or into my computer via Steinberg UR242.

OR

> Direct into either powered speaker above or Steinberg UR242

I have also tried my wireless straight into the powered speaker or the UR242.

I have tried toggling Hi/LowZ switches, 20db pads.  Everything.

All results are the same with digital distortion on the treble side.

I am pretty sure at this point there is a problem with the microphone system.  If I turn the bass and treble side up to the same point (say approximately 40% on the pots) the distortion is terrible on the treble and there is none on the bass side.

I have also disconnected the cable from the bass side to see if that makes a difference.  No luck.

I think I need to pursue getting my money back unless there is something else I haven't thought of.

 

[JerryPH]

Definitely time to send it back... done right, it should be distortion-free.

 

[jozz]

unless you are shorting the circuit somewhere (especially on the 9v+ lines), I'd say it is a bad unit

other options:
- bad/cracked solder joints
- connectors not tight / not closing the circuit
- bent pins on connectors

 

[Mr Mark]

I have recorded a small sample of what it sounds like.



Even if I start with 0% volume on the treble pot and begin to turn it up the distortion is there.  In this instance they were set at about 20%

I thought it might possibly be a proximity problem so I took the grill cover off and moved it as far as I could without disconnecting wires and the issue is still there.  

I also thought to check all the connections and it does not appear there is any loose solder joints etc.  There doesnt appear to be any possibility of short circuiting either.

I am now going to send this link and an email to the seller and see what they have to say.


Thanks for chiming in!  Too bad, because at least the bass mics sound pretty clear and decent.

---

Also just an FYI, I cannot use a moon wireless adapter and get both channels.  The only way I can get both channels is with a stereo to two mono 1/4 cables.  But you all probably knew that already.  

 

[jozz]

hmmm

sound more like mechanical noise to me, especially since it goes away when you don't play (at 0:17)

the buzz doesn't seem to have any pitch, could it not be a loose valve? or another loose component near one of the capsules? it sounds to me like the accordion is making something resonate.

what if you record your voice with it? does it have the same buzz?

 

[JerryPH]

Interesting. I, too, am not hearing any distortion, I am hearing valve noise and mechanical noises like Jozz.

 

[Mr Mark]

Ok, so further testing seems to indicate that it is a proximity issue, the mics get overloaded somewhere around 80 db (with the db meter about 12" away), however this is not always consistent in that it is much more of a problem with multiple reeds engaged (musette) than with single reeds engaged.  I found that with my voice I was able to reproduce the issue on all four treble mics and bass mics...so in fact because the bass mics are far enough away from the reeds the issue doesn't present itself, however I also have in some cases over 10db of difference between notes depending upon how far away they are from the reeds.

I don't think I can get the treble mics far enough away.  As a simple experiment I took thick wads of tissue paper and taped them over the mics to see if that would help and while it did somewhat there is no way I can play at remotely full volume.

I will see if I can find thicker material, and wait to hear back from the seller.

 

[AccordionUprising]

Ive no direct experience to contribute, but first heard about the cheap internal mic technique from this youtube video. This is what I want to try first when I mic my accordion if I want to play loud.

Use something like a Shure SM 57, or SM 58 (they seem to use the same capsule?)  Definitely want a dynamic mic, not a condenser mic:



[video=youtube]

From the (endearingly cranky) post:
Fitting one of the cheapest mics to an excelsior accordion for under £9.00. Great results. Showing the fitting and how its done from start to finish. This system may look a bit heath robinson but it is the best way to fit an internal mic.  You can of course follow the latest daft heads out there and spend a small fortune on microphone arrays all over you accordion but I can assure you it will end in tears when your on stage and your impressive looking microphones are picking up every fidget and fart, amplifying them to 100 Watts and then feeding uncontrollably back through your expensive useless system which you will put in the bin. Dont do it. Just put it in the reed chamber. Why give your hard earned cash to some techno twerp who is just preying on your vulnerability. Try this system first . . if you dont like the £4  mic then go ahead and spend your hard earned bucks on a different system. Ive been using this system for 40 years. 20 summer seasons and thousands of shows. work it out for yourself.

 

[boxplayer4000]

MrMark.
One drastic/last resort answer to your feedback problem would be to use an electronic instrument for your gigs.  No feedback there and the volume limited only by the P.A.system.

 

[JerryPH]

Interestingly, the biggest issue that I had was getting a hot enough quality signal to the mixer, rather than needing to quiet things down to eliminate resultant distortion.  On the capsule that I have inside my Hohner (from a butchered $20 mic as it sounded better than the $10 mic).  The signal was clean, but the levels were so low that I had to max out the settings on the mixer input, and that meant a "hissy" sound.

To get the gain up cleanly without needing to push the mixer in to it's "noisy" gain (at full output), I used an Art Studio Tube Preamp ($40), and that reduced things everywhere and the sound was really good... meaning I could easily get to +2db with no noise and use the integrated limiter on the preamp to get it to never stray over 0db, all with loud, hiss-free sounds. With this, I had the mixer gain set to the 12:30 position (far from where it made noise) and the gain knobs of the Art Studio preamp at around the 3:30 positions with the +20db gain button activated.

Now, if you are running straight in to some amp, this is not needed, most amps you can crank up enough to get it as loud as you need without the preamp, but something like this is going to make your equipment work a lot harder, making artifacts like hiss, possible distortion and so on, easier to crop up.

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MrMark.
One drastic/last resort answer to your feedback problem would be to use an electronic instrument for your gigs.  No feedback there and the volume limited only by the P.A.system.

I don't think many people would want that for the simple reason that if they wanted a "real" accordion, using electronics kind of defeats that purpose. 

 

[boxplayer4000]

JerryPH
I totally agree.  I did use the term 'last resort'.  The 'solution' was passed to me by a professional performer and teacher with impeccable pedigree. As always the choice lies with the individual.