Live and Loud - Feedback Please

[jozz]

good job! okay, too muddy for me but not half bad and kudo's for effort

to help a dynamic along you can activate it with an inline preamp like a fethead or a cloudlifter and feed it phantom (unfortunately this won't work with wireless setup)

but what did the seller say eventually? are you going to return the kit?

 

[Mr Mark]

Definitely not qualitative sound but far more functional in this instance.  I could have lived with the distortion but the feedback was really bad, almost unusable.

Will be looking into other capsules.

The seller has sent me a smaller mic and some resistors, so I will have to take them somewhere to be soldered and see what then.  Probably return them or sell them off.

 

[JerryPH]

The seller has sent me a smaller mic and some resistors, so I will have to take them somewhere to be soldered and see what then.  Probably return them or sell them off.

Not sure I would pay to get someone to solder them. The resisters are going to lower the volume, in effect lowering output to the amp/mixer, but if the mic is being overwhelmed and distorting, thats a very low quality mic. You want a mic that sends a loud clean signal.

 

[John M]

Definitely not qualitative sound but far more functional in this instance.  I could have lived with the distortion but the feedback was really bad, almost unusable.

Will be looking into other capsules.

The seller has sent me a smaller mic and some resistors, so I will have to take them somewhere to be soldered and see what then.  Probably return them or sell them off.

Mr Mark,

Look at the new thread I just created = Piezoelectric Mic Evaluation.  It may help to give you some incite on getting a better mic set up.

John M

 

[Mr Mark]

The seller has sent me a smaller mic and some resistors, so I will have to take them somewhere to be soldered and see what then.  Probably return them or sell them off.

Not sure I would pay to get someone to solder them.  The resisters are going to lower the volume, in effect lowering output to the amp/mixer, but if the mic is being overwhelmed and distorting, thats a very low quality mic.  You want a mic that sends a loud clean signal.  

That’s what I was thinking.  I don’t understand why these mic’s are distorting and giving insane amounts of feedback.  I asked for SPL rating from the seller but didn’t get any.  Not sure if there is a language barrier there.  Meh.

 

[Mr Mark]

Definitely not qualitative sound but far more functional in this instance.  I could have lived with the distortion but the feedback was really bad, almost unusable.

Will be looking into other capsules.

The seller has sent me a smaller mic and some resistors, so I will have to take them somewhere to be soldered and see what then.  Probably return them or sell them off.

Mr Mark,

Look at the new thread I just created = Piezoelectric Mic Evaluation.  It may help to give you some incite on getting a better mic set up.

John M

Hi John,

Took a quick look.  I have to ask, have you tried this setup playing alongside a very loud band without feedback or distortion challenges?  Also, are you able to use this system wirelessly?



I am starting to see there are two very different applications for micing or amplifying accordions live.  One applies much more so to the traditional realm of accordionists and one much more so for the modern pop culture loud band sort of deal.  Am I wrong?  I'm sure there are overlaps but these seem to be two very different beasts.  As if Accordions themselves weren't at times a quagmire of non standardized issue of everything under the sun, so at times it seems the microphones for them are as well  :dodgy: :huh: :s

 

[John M]

Definitely not qualitative sound but far more functional in this instance.  I could have lived with the distortion but the feedback was really bad, almost unusable.

Will be looking into other capsules.

The seller has sent me a smaller mic and some resistors, so I will have to take them somewhere to be soldered and see what then.  Probably return them or sell them off.

Mr Mark,

Look at the new thread I just created = Piezoelectric Mic Evaluation.  It may help to give you some incite on getting a better mic set up.

John M

Hi John,

Took a quick look.  I have to ask, have you tried this setup playing alongside a very loud band without feedback or distortion challenges?  Also, are you able to use this system wirelessly?



I am starting to see there are two very different applications for micing or amplifying accordions live.  One applies much more so to the traditional realm of accordionists and one much more so for the modern pop culture loud band sort of deal.  Am I wrong?  I'm sure there are overlaps but these seem to be two very different beasts.  As if Accordions themselves weren't at times a quagmire of non standardized issue of everything under the sun, so at times it seems the microphones for them are as well  :dodgy: :huh: :s

I haven't played alongside a loud band, but my system was plenty loud with no feedback or distortion in a large room with over 200 people.  The system I have is not wireless.

John

 

[Mr Mark]

John, 

Also I should have asked, are you moving around during the performance?  I think this is also something I was alluding to (but didn't mention) in my previous post about two different types of performances.  I appreciate the input!


I have received an adapter for the Meyers setup and some new batteries but the same problem persists...I can barely turn up the mic to an amplifyiable volume and it starts to feedback really bad.  So that system is done.

I have also received 6 electrets and 6 resistors for the system from Portugal.  I am hoping this works BUT have no idea where to install the resistors (in line).  There are also some extra green wires I know not what for.  I have dispatched this question to the seller but have not heard back, and thought I would pick your brains as well  .  This has me hoping because the new mics mean maybe SPLs wont get overloaded, or whatever is happening (still don't exactly know).

As it stands the SM58 works but the hiss is bad haha  .  Also my band is loud enough that I have to use so much volume I'm back to feedback land quite easily depending on the monitor/main setup and my positioning.  But I do have bass (which was great for the gig the other night where out bass player couldn't make it!)...so if I go back to the 6 mics from Portugal setup I still have to find a wireless that is stereo compatible  :angel: .

Pics of everything, again, help is appreciated!

 

[JerryPH]

As it stands the SM58 works but the hiss is bad haha  .  Also my band is loud enough that I have to use so much volume I'm back to feedback land quite easily depending on the monitor/main setup and my positioning.  But I do have bass (which was great for the gig the other night where out bass player couldn't make it!)...so if I go back to the 6 mics from Portugal setup I still have to find a wireless that is stereo compatible  :angel: .

Pics of everything, again, help is appreciated!

The SM58 hisses because the levels have to be upped to near max on the gain levels of the amp (and I bet you need to play loud as heck after that too, to be heard!).  It needs to be boosted before it gets to you.  A CloudLifter or something similar will help tons there.  What I do is use an external preamp (Art Studio Tube Amp) and basically jack up the input to 75%, output to 75% and add the +20dB boost button... magic! Great gain levels, NO hiss.  Mind you this is for home use, hence why I am saying to use a CloudLifter with that SM58 mic capsule.  Make sure the mixer that you plug it in to has 48v phantom power activated, and lower the gain levels to around unity (0dB gain) as a starting point, have the sound engineer gain stage from there.

Electret mics are very low output... not sure why any resistors are needed, in fact they traditionally need a 9 volt battery powered pre-amp to raise levels too.

He is likely sending you the resistors to lower the sensitivity on your setup that makes feedback at lower levels.  Those are bandaids for issues that should not be there in the first place, if it is properly designed.  If a system needs them, I'd pass on it as it likely won't do a thing for you.

 

[Mr Mark]

Well...again I’m running into the wireless challenge.  I’m a pretty big strong guy but am not sure running around with a battery powered mixer strapped to my body is going to work for boosting gain, along with all of the other things  .

I have received input from the seller on where the resistors are to be installed in line, now begins the hunt to get someone to do this.

You are correct that this system runs on a 9 volt.

If this doesn’t work I’m really going to have to sort out racking up some credit on a new accordion with mic’s inside that I can use wirelessly bass and treble...kind of getting done with band aids to be honest...more so with inadequate sound.

 

[jozz]

I have received input from the seller on where the resistors are to be installed in line, now begins the hunt to get someone to do this.

If this doesn’t work I’m really going to have to sort out racking up some credit on a new accordion with mic’s inside that I can use wirelessly bass and treble...kind of getting done with band aids to be honest...more so with inadequate sound.

I'm still rather curious why these capsules are overloaded by your accordion. I noticed from the photo you have 6 of the larger type capsules, whereas I have only 1 of those (intended for the bass side in a 2+1 setup). I have move the larger bass capsule over to the treble side to be able to boost certain notes on top of the 2 on the strip (my accordion is tiny). Neither of them is ever overloaded.

Are you running any effects (live verb) into your monitors? If you're using your LR Baggs with the band, that is the first I thing I would loose because it will deliver feedback prone midrange to the monitors as well as to the FOH. Sound guy won't be able to do anything about it.

The only wireless stereo setup that is dependable is Limex ($$$). I have an old 8x3 (micro's + MC3 + display) kit lying around but this is wired and only the microphone part but it is stereo and you are welcome to have it for cheap. It might be so that the newer analogue wireless kit can plug into the Limex connector and is compatible?? They have the same amount of pins at least..

PS. Below you see my Fethead. This will give your sm58 about 20db clean gain. It will need phantom though, so still wired. But it's TINY (keyboard for scale) and sits inline with the cable. I use it occasionaly with certain microphones.

 

[Mr Mark]

Hi Jozz,

I saw your other post and can see how you have added the bass to that side to boost those suffering reeds.  Maybe because they are the high treble reeds they wont overload for you on that bigger electret...

I still don't know why these are overloading.  Even with moderate bellows pressure this was happening and I did notice it with certain bass frequencies too.

They appear to be all the same electrets (bass and treble side - yes 4+2 - I got the full size system as these went into a 96 bass Hohner Lucia IVP.)

I like the Hohners as they are loud, and replacements are easily sourced here as well as parts - plus I really like the tuning.  Everything else is kind of sporadic.  It took me about 15 accordions and half rebuilding this one to be able to say this is the best one so far for me in terms of fit, playability (waterfall keys and key width sizing are ace!) and tone with not too much weight and good volume!

But I don't think this accordion is so much louder than any other accordion that the mics should be overloaded.  I never did get an answer on SPL level ratings - but I suspect this is what is the problem.

I have no effects going on.

One of the reasons I got the LR Baggs para EQ was to cut frequencies that were feeding back.  I had some success with this in my studio but live didn't really do much, although it was useful once to provide a signal to my in ear monitors.

I appreciate the offer on the Limex...I may take you up on that if all else fails.  In the meantime it would appear I will need to get a stopgap Fethead or Cloudlifter and run things with a wire for a bit.  


If these replacement electrets work I will still have to sort out the wireless issue.  It may be that I end up running a stereo cable to two mono cables into two separate mono wireless systems to get both bass and treble.  Seems a tad ridiculous yet entirely plausible - I am definitely surprised by the lack of options out there in this regard (when comparing how simple it is to wirelessly send guitar signals for example)!~


Learning!

 

[jozz]

I just took my grille off for a testrun of my capsule:
- dialed the gain pot all the way up
- recorded some loud noises right next to the capsule
- I get zero distortion

is it all of them that are distorting? cant really see a whole batch go wrong. must be the circuit then. But more resistance in the circuit isnt going to help avoid distortion from the capsules themselves...

if you want to experiment with dynamics: search online for Monacor dynamic capsules, they are pretty small and cheap also so if it doesnt work, no biggie. Need some soldering skills though I guess.

good luck!! hope you soon get this over with

NB. here is some study material about the subject, in case you wanted to educate yourself

he explains the electret circuits very nicely

[video=youtube]

 

[Mr Mark]

I appreciate the testing of the electret, good to know that works, I wonder if ours are the same, they look like they are.

All of these mic’s will distort if the DB’s go high enough, but the effect is always localized to the closest mic to the source of the noise (sounding reed) as far as I can tell.  I don’t think it is the circuit, again I think SPL’s are being exceeded but don't know how to tell and could easily be wrong  :dodgy: .

I wonder if the new electrets he sent have a higher SPL which will prevent distortion before we even get into the Resistors.  I think the resistors will be good just because there is so much gain at 25% I don’t need much more volume anyway - so maybe these will give me better ability to tweak individual volumes.   Hoping!

With regard to the wireless stereo issue I am now looking to see if I can adapt a stereo 1/4” female jack into another mono 1/4” female jack...with the bass and treble knobs I should be able to mix the sound well enough at the source to be ok with both channels being sent into one mono, which I can then wireless off to wherever.

Ah!  My aspirations!


I will have to delve more into that video when I have time, can definitely learn some things there...thanks again Jozz!

Some edits due to poor englishing in here.  The stereo 1/4" to mon adapter I'm looking for seems to be a rare breed indeed  .

Also attaching a picture I was sent as to referencing where to put the resistors.  I'm guessing I was given three pairs and am supposed to pick the one most likely to work.



When this is all done I think I will throw a party to celebrate.

 

[jozz]

I haven't looked myself but is there anything written on the capsules? It should have some identification of the component and then we can lookup the datasheet online. This might give you SPL or at least resistance value. Then you can calculate which resistor is best.

Regarding stereo:
I've never really bothered with stereo. My own mono mix has never really let me down. There are times that I wish I could EQ L/R separately but then it gets to an amount of detail and a situation I'd rather sit down and resort to mic's on stands anyway.

If you're going to go stereo-female<>mono-female, sounds you should've gone with the mono system from the start...

Hindsight....

good luck again

 

[Mr Mark]

There is no indication anywhere of what these components are, not even on the pictures on ebay.

Of note on ebay it does indicate this can be rewired to mono, increasingly I am inclined to agree with your comments regarding stereo...hindsight though haha.  


Of course if I do go that route I will no longer be able to hyperfuzz my bass and rotarize my treble in a live situation which is something I thought to do - but maybe I should let that ridiculous dream die ha!

 

[JerryPH]

Don't let your dreams go, and don't let equipment slow you down.

Find solutions to your issues and you will be so much happier for it!

 

[jozz]

I dont want to rub it in your face but Im still extremely happy with my set

Here another example of a small party last weekend. Acoustic gig in between other acts that were mostly electric and rocking hard.

Talking about feedback horror.

Really small space, low ceiling, with huge speakers over our heads, and the vocal mic in between. Then I had an sm57 on my lefthand. Two huge monitors in front of us. 50-60 people right behind those.

Soundguy was present I guess he was riding the faders a lot, the lead was constantly hitting the feedback spot.

I had my pots about 30-40% as I always do. I never was into any problem and could move side to side into the monitors and out. Still cutting through nicely.

[video=youtube]

 

[Mr Mark]

Sounds great Jozz!

I took the replacement mics in with the originals to have them swapped out to a reputable person.  The nature of the work was a little more complex than simple soldering as these components need to be bent into place through some plastic connector bits.

I got them back today and only 2 out of 6 of them work  .  None of the bass mics and only the two middle treble mics.

I don't know if the mics are at fault or if this is a poor soldering job.

I may have reached the very end of microphone experimenting, this has been a very costly venture with incredibly lacklustre results.  At the very least I will return to the repair person tomorrow and see what's up.

 

[jozz]

What a sad story man!

Now that you've invested all this time and effort you must persevere! But I get why you would want to quit, get a refund.

How about these 2 that work, are they still being overloaded?

NB. Offer on the Limex still stands. It's just lying here. I had it line-checked by the Limex dealer and it works. It's just a matter of fitting. Controller for L+R and with builtin EQ and basic FX under the dials. Pickup is very nice. You let me know.