Live and Loud - Feedback Please

[jozz]

Ok, so further testing seems to indicate that it is a proximity issue, the mics get overloaded somewhere around 80 db (with the db meter about 12" away), however this is not always consistent in that it is much more of a problem with multiple reeds engaged (musette) than with single reeds engaged.  I found that with my voice I was able to reproduce the issue on all four treble mics and bass mics...so in fact because the bass mics are far enough away from the reeds the issue doesn't present itself, however I also have in some cases over 10db of difference between notes depending upon how far away they are from the reeds.

I don't think I can get the treble mics far enough away.  As a simple experiment I took thick wads of tissue paper and taped them over the mics to see if that would help and while it did somewhat there is no way I can play at remotely full volume.

I will see if I can find thicker material, and wait to hear back from the seller.

Really annoying to have these issues! hope you can get them fixed.

I don't have these problems so I'm guessing a faulty unit then? I have my capsules not a lot further than an inch from the deck, and can run my pots 100% without distortion, playing at full volume. Even when I point my capsules straight at the holes, it won't distort the way you have it.

good luck

 

[Mr Mark]

Ive no direct experience to contribute, but first heard about the cheap internal mic technique from this youtube video. This is what I want to try first when I mic my accordion if I want to play loud.

Use something like a Shure SM 57, or SM 58 (they seem to use the same capsule?)  Definitely want a dynamic mic, not a condenser mic:



[video=youtube]

From the (endearingly cranky) post:
Fitting one of the cheapest mics to an excelsior accordion for under £9.00. Great results. Showing the fitting and how its done from start to finish. This system may look a bit heath robinson but it is the best way to fit an internal mic.  You can of course follow the latest daft heads out there and spend a small fortune on microphone arrays all over you accordion but I can assure you it will end in tears when your on stage and your impressive looking microphones are picking up every fidget and fart, amplifying them to 100 Watts and then feeding uncontrollably back through your expensive useless system which you will put in the bin. Dont do it. Just put it in the reed chamber. Why give your hard earned cash to some techno twerp who is just preying on your vulnerability. Try this system first . . if you dont like the £4  mic then go ahead and spend your hard earned bucks on a different system. Ive been using this system for 40 years. 20 summer seasons and thousands of shows. work it out for yourself.

Hi Bruce,

Sorry to have missed the Noir fest this year, was looking forward to Vilda.

I wanted to try this too, in fact have an extra 58 capsule laying around but alas there is not enough room anywhere to install it!  These Lucias are incredibly space efficient, the reed blocks come within millimetres when closed.  Entertaining guy nonetheless and I will still try this on another box I have laying around here.

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MrMark.
One drastic/last resort answer to your feedback problem would be to use an electronic instrument for your gigs.  No feedback there and the volume limited only by the P.A.system.

Well there was a fellow at the last gig playing a really nice Roland which sounded fantastic...unfortunately those are well out of my tax bracket at this time  :dodgy: .  Even a nice new Hohner with internal mics are beyond my $ range.

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Interestingly, the biggest issue that I had was getting a hot enough quality signal to the mixer, rather than needing to quiet things down to eliminate resultant distortion.  On the capsule that I have inside my Hohner (from a butchered $20 mic as it sounded better than the $10 mic).  The signal was clean, but the levels were so low that I had to max out the settings on the mixer input, and that meant a hissy sound.

To get the gain up cleanly without needing to push the mixer in to its noisy gain (at full output), I used an Art Studio Tube Preamp ($40), and that reduced things everywhere and the sound was really good... meaning I could easily get to +2db with no noise and use the integrated limiter on the preamp to get it to never stray over 0db, all with loud, hiss-free sounds.  With this, I had the mixer gain set to the 12:30 position (far from where it made noise) and the gain knobs of the Art Studio preamp at around the 3:30 positions with the +20db gain button activated.

Now, if you are running straight in to some amp, this is not needed, most amps you can crank up enough to get it as loud as you need without the preamp, but something like this is going to make your equipment work a lot harder, making artifacts like hiss, possible distortion and so on, easier to crop up.

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MrMark.
One drastic/last resort answer to your feedback problem would be to use an electronic instrument for your gigs.  No feedback there and the volume limited only by the P.A.system.

I dont think many people would want that for the simple reason that if they wanted a real accordion, using electronics kind of defeats that purpose. 

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 Good information for when I get down that road.  I guess I also had this vision of having some independent control over left and right sides of the accordion.  Which is kind funny that with the setup I have now I dont know of any wireless system that will accommodate that  :dodgy:  .  Like, I actually wanted to run around with this thing.     .

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Ok, so further testing seems to indicate that it is a proximity issue, the mics get overloaded somewhere around 80 db (with the db meter about 12 away), however this is not always consistent in that it is much more of a problem with multiple reeds engaged (musette) than with single reeds engaged.  I found that with my voice I was able to reproduce the issue on all four treble mics and bass mics...so in fact because the bass mics are far enough away from the reeds the issue doesnt present itself, however I also have in some cases over 10db of difference between notes depending upon how far away they are from the reeds.

I dont think I can get the treble mics far enough away.  As a simple experiment I took thick wads of tissue paper and taped them over the mics to see if that would help and while it did somewhat there is no way I can play at remotely full volume.

I will see if I can find thicker material, and wait to hear back from the seller.

Really annoying to have these issues! hope you can get them fixed.

I dont have these problems so Im guessing a faulty unit then? I have my capsules not a lot further than an inch from the deck, and can run my pots 100% without distortion, playing at full volume. Even when I point my capsules straight at the holes, it wont distort the way you have it.

good luck

Im not sure what the deal is to be honest.  If my assumptions are correct these elecret condensers are omnidirectional and thus are incapable of proximity effect.  A little further light reading    seems to want to tell me that the SPL rating is being overcome, so Im of the impression I really need to install a baffle to reduce the sheer volume of sound getting to the condensers.  If that works great, otherwise its times like these I wish I was an electrical engineer.

Here is another sound clip, description below;



[font=Interstate,]At the beginning you can hear the mics picking up a radio station when not being played. The first three notes do not distort, the fourth note between 40-41 seconds and 43-45 seconds experience distortion.[/font]

I find it entertaining soundcloud recommends hashtags #classical for the first test and #jazz #freejazz for the second test   .  Yay levity!

 

[AccordionUprising]

By the way, this is one of the most useful discussion of amplifying accordions for loud bands that I've seen. Thanks to all contributors. I'll be sharing it around.

 

[Mr Mark]

By the way, this is one of the most useful discussion of amplifying accordions for loud bands that I've seen. Thanks to all contributors. I'll be sharing it around.

I really had no idea how much of a challenge this was going to be going in.  This is the third set of dedicated accordion microphones I have purchased and unfortunately none of them have worked for what I need.  

Having said that Meyers are sending me an adapter and some new batteries to see If that will work.  Thumbs up for customer service in this regard, very fast email response.

Also midifsa on eBay are now sending me another microphone for the treble side and some resistors which I will have to get someone else to solder - I'm just not good enough to tackle that myself right now (see my post about drilling holes in a circuit board to remove old solder   ).



Unfortunately I have also found instances of overload concerning the bass mics.  For lack of a better explanation I can only think the SPL ratings are being well and truly exceeded...which is too bad as these mics really do sound good up until that point, with little feedback issue.


Tomorrow I try the capsule method.  I've already butchered this accordion enough that it doesn't matter anymore 

 

[AccordionUprising]

Roland synth accordions are very popular in (accordion) metal bands. Plugging them in is the reason. I look forward to hearing more about your electro/acoustic results.

 

[Eddy Yates]

This has probably been posted somewhere before, but Kimrick Smythe in Oakland, CA has developed his own mic systems and sells them as a kit or installed. They’re much more expensive than what we’re discussing (but if I were doing a big tour I’d just get one installed in a heartbeat.)
However, for this DIY discussion, his blog on mics may be useful:

My ramblings on microphone systems
3/12/2018 3 Comments

Accordions and Amplifiers and my Mic System.
Like many instruments, accordions have trouble keeping up with louder and amplified instruments and over the years people have tried many ways to amplify their sound.
One of the earliest accordion amplifying techniques is the crystal microphone, which was starting to come into use by the late 40’s. Crystal mics were relatively small and inexpensive so a good system could have 6-7 mics with stereo separation of a sort, with separate tone and volume control for the left and right sides. Simpler crystal mic systems had as few as one mic and no onboard volume control at all.
Crystal mics vary in quality and their response is uneven through the audio frequency range. What’s more, response of these mics can deteriorate over time and in some cases they can die entirely. I will occasionally install crystal mic systems in accordions for people who need a vintage sound and I often have to sort through old sets to match up a new set . They can also have a strange echo at the end of each note, but placement of resistors can help.
Condenser mic systems for accordions are a newer type and have been around since at least the 70’s but they too run into some of the same problems that installers found with crystal systems: there is no such thing as a standard accordion so there can be no standard microphone system. Some systems appear to have been designed in a lab by somebody with little experience with accordions and can suffer for reliability issues and no troubleshooting support.
Quality of installation can vary wildly and have a effect on the long term reliability of a mic system, and the types of plugs used to connect the parts of the mic system is important. (The fun ones to work on have no plugs so you can’t separate the bellows from the accordion for service or sometimes the grill is attached by the mic wires and can’t be removed completely.)
It takes 5-6 hours to install one of these mic systems and then they weren’t always reliable, which added on even more hours of (unpaid!) work because of the warranty I offer Most mic systems were not adaptable to the many variations of accordion construction and many older accordions have no clearance under the grill, and finding a location for the output jack can be a problem.
In response to these problems, I designed a mic system of my own: With modern tech the boards did not need to be large, but I did want the solder points to be accessible to normal soldering tools and wire. Plugs would be industry standard and findable in the future for service. The mics would be on wires so the board could be put in whatever space was available and the mics could be placed for optimum sound.
I use two mics in the bass side so you get an even volume across the bass range to reduce the risk of “hot spots” or uneven output on larger accordions. Three mics seems to be enough to get an even response on the right side. (Some Limex systems I’ve worked on use as many as 12 on the right side!)
I find that internal mics under the grill are best for performing accordions because the closer you can get a microphone to the source of the sound, the less likely feedback will occur. The microphone capsules are directional by design so they are less sensitive to outside noise than sound from the accordion.
A obvious solution would seem to be to place the mics inside close to the reeds like some of the older crystal systems. Condenser mics can’t generally be placed inside the accordion as the changing air pressure will eventually damage them, and will cause distortion. It is also difficult to get separation of the left and right side of the accordion this way. Separation is achieved by placing mics under the grill and inside the bass machine area, a nice side effect is separate volume control that will allow you to do things like use only the piccolo reed on the right and the master register on the left.
This setting would be unusable on most accordions as the piccolo would be drowned out by the bass. With good separation you can turn down the bass to match the output of the keyboard. This will sound unbalanced on the accordion but will sound fine coming out of the amp.
Don’t forget that amplifiers have a big effect on the sound. Standard solid state guitar amps can make almost any accordion sound sharp and metallic. In a pinch a bass amp will give a better sound overall. Keyboard amps are better than guitar amps in most cases but they seem to vary. I have been really happy with the sound of tube or hybrid amps because they seem to warm the tone somewhat and generally sound better with accordions

 

[jozz]

i guess you got a lemon Mark, good that they are trying to fix it

this is my midifisa set last night (going into wireless DI) :

[video=youtube]

 

[Mr Mark]

Sounds great Jozz!

I wish I could be two places at once.  Played New Years set last night in a very tight space and had to play sideways as the mains were right by my head and the feedback was mega intense.  I was told the accordion sounds great but for the life of me I cannot get a clean signal monitoring.  I really do wonder if the distortion somehow magically disappears into the crowd once it is at 8000 dbs.  It might be that this setup will work for what I am doing anyway due to the fact I am dealing with volume extremes as a band on the whole.


As a side; anyone have thoughts on this piece of equipment?


https://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro...ment-system-with-wireless-usb-audio-interface


It really sucks only having one side of the accordion due to most wireless systems being mono and am wondering if this is a likely solution to getting both sides going wireless without a bunch more wires.

 

[JerryPH]

This wireless setup is meh in terms of performance:

17ms latency, 50 foot range less if you place a body between the receiver/transmitter, and bass side cuts out sooner than expected, like around 40hZ-50Hz.

Lots of examples on YOUTUBE.

 

[Tom]

Lookin' good Jozz!

 

[JerryPH]

Ugh... one day Joz is going to stop teasing us and post a whole song! I just have enough time to get all in to it, and the vid cuts out!

 

[Dingo40]

Hey, Jerry, Jozz, Tom, et al,

These guys arent bothered about distortion , theyre just getting on with playing!
(Seemingly, in the utility room at that!  )

 

[jozz]

Ugh... one day Joz is going to stop teasing us and post a whole song! I just have enough time to get all in to it, and the vid cuts out!

here you go Jer

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[video=youtube]

 

[JerryPH]

Hey, Jerry, Jozz, Tom, et al,

These guys arent bothered about distortion , theyre just getting on with playing!
(Seemingly, in the utility room at that!  )

An awesome example where good music overcomes all obstacles!!

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Ugh... one day Joz is going to stop teasing us and post a whole song!  I just have enough time to get all in to it, and the vid cuts out!  

here you go Jer

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[video=youtube]

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Now THATS what I am talking about!!!          

It was worth the wait... awesome, love it!

 

[Tom]

Lookin' good! Jozz and the Brazilians! Going to see some Brazilian music tonight....

 

[Mr Mark]

Love those particular Flogging Molly accordion hooks Jozz! 


Salty Dog gave me a whole new appreciation for Matt Hensley's style, which I am now well and truly incorporating into my own.  It was easily a couple of months before I could play it at the way too fast speed our band likes to blaze at  :dodgy: .

Awesome sounds man!

 

[jozz]

thanks, although you might notice I'm not 100% on the tempo now and again

this is our opening song...   gives me a good warm-up, gets the crowd going, I like it

 

[Mr Mark]

Great song for gettin' er goin!  Everybody loves it!

Accordion surgery day yesterday.  Fixed a couple off sounding reeds...had to remove and rewax was all...hope the wax overall isn't getting brittle.

More importantly took on the task of removing the electret mics and installed an SM58 capsule.  This whole process took probably 4-5 hours...most of which was spent soldering four simple contacts  .  At least I didn't burn myself this time.  I ended up using a lot of hot glue and gorilla tape to affix the mic as I did not want to screw into the reed blocks.  There was only one spot to put it, and while not ideal, it actually works fairly well.  I also had to carve a bunch of wood off the bellows frame.  Unfortunately due to placement the really high notes don't come through so well, but you cant win them all...as I have discovered many times over now  :dodgy: .

It would be nice to find some smaller sized mic capsules down the road and perhaps install one at each end for better balance but meh...this works.

No distortion, and, I can get really loud and really close to the monitors before feedback!  Great, that last show was a pain having to play sideways because of the mains positioning causing feedback.  And I have both sides bass and treble.  Critically the treble is on the louder side of things.

I am hoping to do some tweaking with my DI box today for better sounds and will post some audio clips when I do.


Until then, feast your eyes on these oh so satisfying pictures.  Well, at least they are to me.

 

[JerryPH]

It's amazing how many people will tell you how bad doing this is... and how well this actually works!

I am not even using SM58 capsules, but some cheap $20 capsules (because knew at the time that I was going to go the 2 higher end external condenser mics route because I was looking for making recordings in a quiet location, and not gig with this setupo), and I am ok with how they sound too. I don't find the balance totally skewed to the treble side, but that could be because the bass side on my accordion is normally well balanced and though I have the mic on the treble side, they're closer to the higher end reeds as opposed to having them closer to the deeper sounding notes.

Question, how do you find the output strength? Did you ever connect this setup to a mixer and if yes, at what gain setting did you hit the 0db mark? I find the $20 versions fairly weak, though with a preamp, they sound great.

 

[Mr Mark]

Well, the sound isnt amazing, the electrets were much better in terms of clarity and eveness in volume from one end of the accordion to the other...but...I can absolutely crank this through my little amp/monitor and not get feedback and use my wireless (mono) with both bass and treble sides of the accordion coming through.  Also, I dont get distortion (with the exception of a couple very low notes on the treble side due to the mics proximity, however I can mitigate this with reduced bellows pressure).  The capsule itself is from an SM58 I bought second hand years ago that was already in pieces...I have no idea what it has been through or can speak to the validity of its actual quality.

Noticeably to get loud enough volume levels I need to crank up the preamp on the mixer to a point where a less than satisfying amount of hiss is achieved, however at this point everything boils down to the lesser of all evils, and the sm58 capsule is it.

I will definitely be looking further into other perhaps more suitable capsules, especially smaller ones considering I really had no choice when it came to mic placement with this one.  Overall the bass notes suffer the least, while the really high treble notes are a bit of an issue, but for the most part I am not playing there anyway.

Here are two samples where I ran the output from the accordion direct into my computers sound card (Steinberg UR242).  I made the mistake of not having the settings written down but this was a reasonably optimal result with the very limited testing I did.  I did a lot more testing into my portable (battery) powered monitor via LR Baggs Paracoustic DI earlier and was able to achieve much more satisfactory tone, but do have to work on removing hiss.  

Of note the computer recording does not do this set up justice that coming out of the powered monitor does.  And I doubt I would use this to actually record.



(my own creation inspired by Flogging Molly)

I think that given everything I have tried, for entry level or cheap accordions this is absolutely the way to go.  It is far less intrusive and expensive.  In fact, I think if I was to find two better suited (if such things do exist - they must) capsules and place them either end and blend them somehow, I dont see how this cant actually work really well for much more expensive (read:better sounding) accordions than mine.  

Critically I am able to use my wireless system, get both bass and treble and not have feedback or distortion. Being the band I am playing with are kind of insanely loud the hiss just adds to the ambience of it all   .  Will know more after our next rehearsal on Thursday.

Thank you all for the feedback (pun intended)!!! - hopefully I havent blathered on too much, but Ill be damned if I was going to let this die, even if it totally turned out to be a Frankenstein.  And go listen to some Flogging Molly...Salty Dog.