stickista
Well-known member
At this point, its all somewhat academic. I have (or will, shortly) have 3 bandos/accordions, 2 accordinas, and a piano Vibrandoneon. At some point it becomes an exercise in obsession.
Non-converter free bass, and compact with cassotto?
- Thread starter stickista
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Should be a lot cheaper, as you won't be paying anything for the bass.
Ok, I'll get my coat. Time to go and squeeze the box a bit.
Delighted that you welcome good news. I can only speak of my own situation with some 45 youngsters learning FB accordion in W Yorkshire. I know nothing of the paucity or otherwise scene in other parts of the UK but I imagine there are green shoots judging by the music from recent Royal visits to Edinburgh and the Proms where the Scottish classical accordion voice featured on a prominent national stage.
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That is pretty impressive!
stickista
Well-known member
As a Geuns enthusiast, I have to agree. As made, you have to curve your wrists to reach around to the buttons particularly if you use thumbs. I immediately did a mod that I think Harry should incorporate, which is to attach 2 half pipes (split from 2” PVC) just behind the wrist straps to raise my wrists and flatten the finger/wrist angle. I think it improves ergo a lot.
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Jerry,
Here is one.
And a similar, simpler one.
I was looking for one of these a couple of years ago and there was a European dealer who seemed to always have one or two used ones on hand. But I cannot remember the dealer's name. Maybe someone else on the list will know.
Jim
Walker
🪗
If nothing else matters except quality and non-converter, this can't be beaten...
www.akkordeoncentrum.de
Hohner Gola 494 - Akkordeon Centrum
With enough money, they can build one to your specs and toss in a monkey to play all the jazz chords and you can play 1 handed and sound like Art Van Damme... 
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Keith Anderson had one sitting on his shelf for 2-3 years but I think it was because it was a B-system right hand and C-system left. He finally sold it, but I don't know for how much. If it was a C-system left and right it was an easy $25,000US or more instrument and would have sold in about 10 minutes.If nothing else matters except quality and non-converter, this can't be beaten...
Hohner Gola 494 - Akkordeon Centrum
A monkey learning how to play all the jazz chords...Plausible.
Me learning how to play like Art Van Damme?.. That's never going to happen.
Me learning to play like a monkey?..Given enough practice and dedication, I think that's achievable in a 10 year time frame.
FWIW, on my little free bass layouts trip I did not find the Bayan-B combo any better or worse than C(MIII)-B combo. In both cases the keyboards are different enough that one needs to learn from scratch.
stickista
Well-known member
I have to think playing unison lines on 2 different systems would be a nightmare.A monkey learning how to play all the jazz chords...Plausible.
Me learning how to play like Art Van Damme?.. That's never going to happen.
Me learning to play like a monkey?..Given enough practice and dedication, I think that's achievable in a 10 year time frame.
FWIW, on my little free bass layouts trip I did not find the Bayan-B combo any better or worse than C(MIII)-B combo. In both cases the keyboards are different enough that one needs to learn from scratch.
I”ve found that LH shell chords with C system (low note at top) lay nicely, but I’m convinced that Low note at bottom, as it is with B system free reeds, is better for reading bass clef… with C system low note at top your hands are moving in the opposite direction of the notes on the page and I find that rally difficult.
Even on the Russian B-system on both sides, there is a major difference... the directions are inversed, so as the right hand goes down, to play the same notes, the left hand is going up... sometimes you just can't win.
Walker
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Even on a "C both sides" accordion the LH actions never completely mirror the RH. It is pretty close though, definately passable. For me the best part of C both sides is that you can check and potentially improve your LH fingering of a phrase by playing it over on the RH to "see" what's good (but it doesn't really work so well the other way round).
I can understand why some think the "mirror" image layout is one of the best options. I like it, but I can also see why others are happy to play chromatic button on RH but play something else, not mirrored or even inverted on LH, like our buddy tcabot.
I can understand why some think the "mirror" image layout is one of the best options. I like it, but I can also see why others are happy to play chromatic button on RH but play something else, not mirrored or even inverted on LH, like our buddy tcabot.
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I've mentioned it before, that if I was starting again today, I would be reaching out to Zero Sette to make me a dual C-system converter accordion with mirrored left and right hands AND the steps on the first 3 bottom bass rows closest to the bottom, but I am an older man and started FB on a piano accordion, so that's what I have and it's what they are going to bury me with.
Walker
🪗
Well Jerry, I respect your choice to play PA with MIII (C system LH), I think the great MIII piano Gola's were maybe the best sounding accordions ever made. I also respect your insight into what you might have done in another lifetime - with C system both hands, and steps on LH. You are a man of good taste.
I've spent a little bit of time now with a button accordion with C system on both sides, and of course I am a piano accordionist first.
If I could start again, knowing what I know, what would I do? ...I would do nothing different. I would still choose to play PA with Quint converter as my first instrument. However, I would also learn CBA C system too (as I am doing now) with C converter as it makes a fantastic contrast to the PA + Quint that I rate so highly (you would never guess 
). They are different enough to be almost unrelated, and yet I think that is quite a good mix to have. If I were very wealthy and already had a great PA with Quint converter and a great CBA with C system converter, I would secretly like to try...
There, I said it!
I've spent a little bit of time now with a button accordion with C system on both sides, and of course I am a piano accordionist first.
If I could start again, knowing what I know, what would I do?
...I would do nothing different. I would still choose to play PA with Quint converter as my first instrument. However, I would also learn CBA C system too (as I am doing now) with C converter as it makes a fantastic contrast to the PA + Quint that I rate so highly (you would never guess ). They are different enough to be almost unrelated, and yet I think that is quite a good mix to have. If I were very wealthy and already had a great PA with Quint converter and a great CBA with C system converter, I would secretly like to try...a Richard Galliano style accordion, with CBA C treble and Quint converter bass
There, I said it!
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If I could start again, knowing what I know.... what would I do?
You are a braver man than I!
Full disclosure - not playing yet.
Tried a few systems, got blown away by moschino, but don't have the box for starting to learn yet. If the LHS is specifically designed to be comfortable & intuitive for 4-finger use with limited mobility, that beats any "mirroring" ideas in my books.
Furthermore, by the time you've put enough hours into practicing any system to develop basic muscle memory, the initial ease of a more "familiar" layout is negligible, imho. In contrast, shorter finger stretches, more natural hand positions, easy access to circle of fifths, ease of transposing (or the lack of all these things) are there to stay forever. You can practice (a lot) to overcome these difficulties, but the difficulties are still there.
Again, fwiw, it took me 10x less time to play a major scale over 3 octaves of a moschino compared to me playing a simple major scale over bayan or MIII, even though the latter were a lot more "theoretically familiar". Arpeggios and chord progressions were a walk in the park on moschino after less than an hour, while bayan was making my head hurt after 15 minutes. I think "similar but not quite the same" is even worse than "completely different" for my small brain.
I think the answer to the bayan being reversed lies in the old-school 4-finger RHS technique. It makes a lot of use of the first hand position (fingers pointing downwards). Comfortable for RH, really uncomfortable for LH which feels more natural when pointing upwards (just think of the angles of stradella rows). If you reverse the LHS, you spend more time in the third position instead of the first one. I'm going back in time by about 100 years, when 3-row bayan free bass was built on boxes with 3-row bayan RHS, for thumb-behind-keyboard RH techniqie.
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Mind you, as I've mentioned in another thread a while ago, the moschino is just the accordion version of the Kusserow left hand layout developed for the (very restricted) left hand on a unisonoric bandoneon a 100 years ago, so there's nothing new about the idea of spreading the chromatic scale over 4 button rows instead of 3.
Mike K
Well-known member
5869 - Black Giulietti Bassetti S2 Free Bass Piano Accordion LM 41 36
Type: Piano Accordion Reeds: 2/2 LM Treble: 41 Keys, 16.5(42cm) Key to Key, 3 Registers Bass: 36 Bass Buttons, 4 Registers Weight: 18.5lbs / 8.5kg Features: C System Free Bass Only, Perfect for Free Bass Beginners, Lightweight & Compact, Internal Mics
Do you mean one like this?
Walker
🪗
The Concertina, that's free bass!
Edward Jay is making very modern ones. I like the Hayden Duet system, though there are numerous others.
While I am not so keen on Roslin Castle (there are LOTS of other more beautiful Scottish airs) but regardless it's an interesting instrument design, not "classic" a la Charles Wheatstone, more funky, like erm... Japanese jogging trainers..
Have a listen:
Edward Jay has an interesting website and uses a lot of modern techniques/3d printing etc. in the production of concertinas.
Bandotina anyone?
Edward Jay is making very modern ones. I like the Hayden Duet system, though there are numerous others.
While I am not so keen on Roslin Castle (there are LOTS of other more beautiful Scottish airs) but regardless it's an interesting instrument design, not "classic" a la Charles Wheatstone, more funky, like erm... Japanese jogging trainers..
Have a listen:
Edward Jay has an interesting website and uses a lot of modern techniques/3d printing etc. in the production of concertinas.
Bandotina anyone?
