Best Italian brands for high-end CBA converter (bayan)

[Walker]

I've never heard of ZeroSette. How does Zero Sette relates to Bugari?

Today, same accordion, just a different grille.

Yes indeed saundersbp. I will just add a little extra context, forgive me, you know I am a bit daft on the stories and history...

ZeroSette, as we know, means number 7. It was founded in 1945 by seven accordion builders. Over time the company would come to produce some of the greatest accordion models, like the Zero Sette B30, the Giulietti Classic 127, the Petosa AM1100. However in 2007 the company was bought by Bugari Armando. They have been linked ever since. I like very much the tone of certain Zero Sette accordions, though the models I like most are piano accordions and not bayans. Now, Bugari Amando who own ZS, are a fairly modern and vibrant company, they have an increasing presence in China and seem to be the big player there. In 2019 the Bugari story becomes further linked to the growing Asian market, when they were invested in by Tianjin Huayun Ltd. Now, this might be the source of security and continuity for Bugari that my friend Saundersbp refers to (though it is only my guess) because to have great access to the market in China is to have an endless source of potential customers.

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[debra]

What are the innovations that Beltuna has incorporated into their products? Are the innovations applied only to Matrix models or to Prestige models as well? Is there any catalog or tech specs that describe the features of Beltuna high-end accordions? Their site does not goes into details of their accordions.

They have a few noteworthy innovations: the "Amplisound" extra sound chamber you can open and close was the first I saw. Later they introduced an electromechanic bass mechanism (in the Matrix model) that eliminated the complex mechanics of a convertor accordion. Then they started adding to that, now with "half press" to allow for tone bending, and contacts on the treble side to enable playing bass notes using the keyboard, etc.
But even without any of these innovations their "basic" accordion are already very good. The Prestige Paris IV I tried years ago did not have any innovations (I'm aware of) but just had great sound and very nice mechanics too.

 

[debra]

I've never heard of ZeroSette. How does Zero Sette relates to Bugari?

Zero Sette was started by seven people interested in accordion building, but each of them alone couldn't do it. The considered themselves "zeroes" but together they could build accordions and did it quite well. For a long time the best part of what they were known for was for building Giulietti accordions. Zero Sette at some point joined Bugari in using the same factory, but they were still separate. At the Frankfurter Musikmesse for instance they would have a corner booth with a long end and a short end. Bugari had the largest part (the long end) and Zero Sette the smallest (the short end). To this date Zero Sette still sells accordions under their own name. I don't know how different the instruments still are from Bugari. The biggest blow to Zero Sette must have been when the Giulietti deal ended. That must have driven them completely into the hands of Bugari.

 

[Volodymyr]

The Prestige Paris IV I tried years ago did not have any innovations (I'm aware of) but just had great sound and very nice mechanics too

I'm adding Beltuna to my list of brands to consider! Thank you very much, @debra

 

[Volodymyr]

After investigating a bit more about Beltuna Gran Convertor I understand that all the models have a solenoid valves system, require a battery and a charger, however the sound is still fully acoustic. This sets Beltuna convertors to a different category. I know that we already mentioned that there are people that like the system, and other do not. Could you, please, comment on your experience with this system. Is it reliable or has some issues? Was the declared battery life confirmed on daily use? Are the differences in a mechanic free bass system so much pronunciated to consider an alternative that Beltuna offers? Thank you!

 

[Ventura]

i would suggest you look at the solenoid bass system as a Value Added feature
that for some of us adds no value

it may have been partly inspired by the Roland V-accordions, who brought
to Market an ability for the Bass to be switchable between many different systems
in the same physical accordion.. Since the Beltuna Solenoid system is controlled by Software,
it too can give you virtually any pattern of Basses you want on the same accordion

this would add value MOSTLY to someone who wanted to play, try, experiment,
with many different Bass systems, or even create one of their own as a new pattern
and idea, in that you only have to invest in one good accordion to have,
essentially, many good accordions at your pleasure. With the addition of the
half-press that our Debra has explained, Beltuna now adds the value of an
exclusive feature (compared to the Roland)

the negative side is that some of us, like me, who have a long history with Tech
and electronics, simply do not trust a system like this
(or the stepper motor controlled bellows of certain model Rolands)
to be reliable over the long term, and so it is a "deal killer" as they say

but i could certainly be proven wrong.. of course i will have passed on
to the next life long before any of you will know if they did last as long as
traditional tried and true old fashioned mechanical technology..

for some, the added risk is a fair trade for the added benefits

 

[petch]

Personally I'm sick of batteries! If someone eventually makes a battery with high capacity that doesn't degrade with use or over time then I'd be more open to electromechanical accordions

 

[John M]

. . . (or the stepper motor controlled bellows of certain model Rolands). . .

Did all 8X's have stepper motors? How can I tell if my 8X has a stepper motor without taking it apart? My 8X service service manual shows a stepper motor in the exploded view of the bellows.

 

[Ventura]

you managed to get a service manual out of them ?

cool.. not an easy thing to acomplish

i think the verification is, if there are no bellows clasps and the
bellows holds itself closed when powered down, then it is
motor controlled.

i suppose there are 2 key pieces (to try and have spares of)
the motor itself, and the control board that has the logic.
The way it was explained to me was vaguely the number of
keys pressed plus the amount of "reedbanks" in play equaled
varied control output to have the motor simulate accurate bellows
movement in relation to these variables

as i said, between this and the early failure rate i personally wrote
off my ever getting on board the FR8, but there are many of you
who are using them regularly with good success and reliability now.

i hope this trend continues, but MY personal choice is still the
original FR7/5 as the most reliable, rugged, and for me desirable model.

 

[JerryPH]

Did all 8X's have stepper motors?

Yes. Its one of the reasons that the 8X had better bellows control/feel over the previous generations, as I was told.

 

[John M]

Thanks for the replies fellows. I thought Ventura said there were problems with the stepper motors. Hopefully, I have the "improved" version. I am very happy with my bellows control and the expression I can get out of it.

 

[Ventura]

Personally I'm sick of batteries! If someone eventually

hey Petch

i understand your feelings.. i mean we had niCad batteries for so long and
they gave us pretty good punch over earlier alternatives, and they were
so predictable and lasted unreal 30 years in some cases.. we could always
buy surplus Army battery packs for cheap, rip them apart and test the
cells, keeping the ones that still had lifesigns and get good use from them

then NiMh took over, and were just a costly dissapointment for me,
but they killed NiCad production

happily, the Lithium rechargeable battery is maturing now.. you can find prices
coming down, and single cell batteries both Button top and Flat top (for making packs)
readily available and as easy to use as alkalines.

just as when 5 volt became popular, many manufacturers moved toward
building devices that work in that environment so we have Smartphones and
Chromebooks and now even full power Laptops

Reccently i have seen (and bought a few to try) Wireless Audio
systems using button top LiPo cells under a flip cover for easy switching out.
i am pretty well copnvinced these will be long lived, easy to use systems
and i am moving towards being totally rid of NiMh forever. There are
easy to use (around $10) very efficient voltage buck/stepdown solid
state regulators on Amazon, and multi-cell LiPo battery holders in all
sizes now, and i have fitted several setups into my older battery powered PA
systems and other portable gear

so things are getting better as this new battery tech matures

 

[JerryPH]

LiPo have their challenges as well. I know a slew of photographers that wanted to place those "AA" sized variants in their expensive flash units and even with the warnings that they could damage their flashes did so anyway. One photographer lost three $900 flash units in one day because of that. LiPo batteries should be used only in equipment designed for them.

 

[Ventura]

sheesh
one would think people who do high end photography could do simple math

the AA simulator models are designed to equal ALKALINE not NiMh
and are clearly marketed as such.. those people have not a leg to stand on..

Normal single cell LiPo are mostly a different size than other batteries, and equipment
being designed that uses them won't accept AA, AAA, C, or D sizes so they should
wait for Flash units that incorporate the new dimensions. These will come because
one feature of LiPo is high current fast discharge which is being taken advantage
of in other areas (like portable 12 Volt Jump starters and camping Power Pack inverters)

i continue to use LiPo in the FR4x eclusively, and i seem to recall you retrofitted
your Roland for LiPo as well ? neither were designed for them, but we did the math !

 

[Tom]

i continue to use LiPo in the FR4x eclusively, and i seem to recall you retrofitted
your Roland for LiPo as well ? neither were designed for them, but we did the math !

Say Ventura, do you have to do anything to use the LiPo in the Fr4x? (Based on your question about retrofitting the fr8. Maybe you already explained it in a different thread.)

 

[Volodymyr]

Are there any differences between brands and models in terms of accessories and documentation that are part of delivery after a purchase of an accordion? Specifically, I'm interested what is delivered, if anything, along with an instrument in terms of

• Carry case (rigid or flexible)
• Leather straps
• Documentation: user manual (description of registers, tech specs, etc), safety guidelines (what to do, what not to do), maintenance recommendations (usage, storage, transportation)
• Is there any repository of user manuals for instruments per brand/model?

Thank you!

 

[petch]

Are there any differences between brands and models in terms of accessories and documentation that are part of delivery after a purchase of an accordion? Specifically, I'm interested what is delivered, if anything, along with an instrument in terms of

• Carry case (rigid or flexible)
• Leather straps
• Documentation: user manual (description of registers, tech specs, etc), safety guidelines (what to do, what not to do), maintenance recommendations (usage, storage, transportation)
• Is there any repository of user manuals for instruments per brand/model?

Thank you!

I can't answer this but I would also check if your chosen instrument includes a chin register protector, it's one of the most vulnerable parts and won't be easy/cheap to fix!

 

[debra]

Are there any differences between brands and models in terms of accessories and documentation that are part of delivery after a purchase of an accordion? Specifically, I'm interested what is delivered, if anything, along with an instrument in terms of

• Carry case (rigid or flexible)
• Leather straps
• Documentation: user manual (description of registers, tech specs, etc), safety guidelines (what to do, what not to do), maintenance recommendations (usage, storage, transportation)
• Is there any repository of user manuals for instruments per brand/model?

Thank you!

Whether you want a rigid carrying case or a flexible, bagpack type is typically a choice you can make when ordering. You can also opt to get both (at additional cost). When the accordion needs to be shipped it's best to include a rigid carrying case, but it offers only about 10% of the protection that is needed for transportation on an airplane...
Every accordion comes with good straps.
Accordions generally do not come with documentation, manual, descriptions... neither are these available on-line, beyond what is on the company's website that lists the models. It's an accordion. You're supposed to know how to handle an accordion when you order one...
The types of protection, for the keyboard, for chin switches... it all depends on manufacturer and model. The only accordion I bought that came with a chin-switch protector was my Russian AKKO bayan. I have seen an older Pigini Sirius bayan, with chin-switch protector. The Sirius was a pretty good replica of the Russian bayans. I guess providing a chin-switch protector was part os that "replication" process. A CBA uses a standard chin-switch mechanism right where the chin-switches are so the position of the switches is standard and a chin-switch protector likely works on many CBA accordions with the same number of chin-switches in the same layout. With a PA that is not the case: the keyboard goes right to the edge so there is no room for a standard mechanism. It's all rods going under the keyboard, and levers hidden under there as well. The distance between the switches and their location is not standard. When you make a chin-switch protector for one PA and then buy an identical one (same model, same brand) the protector is unlikely to fit the other PA...

 

[JerryPH]

You can also opt to get both (at additional cost). When the accordion needs to be shipped it's best to include a rigid carrying case, but it offers only about 10% of the protection that is needed for transportation on an airplane...

I don't know how accordions make it "alive" from most manufacturers to North America... lol
IMHO, the best way to ship an accordion (especially the expensive ones) is on an airplane seat right beside you.

 

[oldbayan]

Remember: an expensive instrument does not make you a better player