Best Italian brands for high-end CBA converter (bayan)

[Ventura]

well ok, but an inferior instrument DOES prevent many students
from becoming the better player they are capable of being

it is tough, when you are young and poor and stuck with
something you can easily outplay, to excel or even to be
inspired/motivated to try and excel

i have always advised Parents and Students alike when selecting
an instrument to please get the best one you can possibly afford..

 

[petch]

If a good quality instrument with a nice sound will help motivate one to practice more, I say buy the best instrument you can comfortably afford whilst keeping in mind the fact you get diminishing returns at the higher end

if you spend €12,000 on an instrument and play it for 10 hours a week for 10 years it works out at €2.30 an hour to use, ignoring any resale value it will have by then. Much cheaper than a lot of other hobbies in the long run!

 

[Ventura]

sometimes when i stop and consider that "time" factor

like it takes an average of 40 minutes to listen to both sides of a record album,
so if i multiply that by the number of albums i have, and if i did nothing but listen
to albums from now until the day

i should have started years ago

10 hours a week for 10 years it works out at €2.30 an hour to use, ignoring any resale value it will have by then.
,,,,,,, in the long run!

 

[Volodymyr]

One of the reason I asked about the documentation for an instrument is to know where the diminished seventhchord is located on Italian CBAs. In Russian bayans the diminished seventhchord is located one button/row below the main bass to reduce the distance between a bass and a seventhchord e. g. Cd is in front of F, Gd is in front of C. Do Italian CBAs follow the same convention? Is the convention followed by all brands and models or are there differences between brands?

Where does the C is located on a free bass B-griff of Italian CBAs? Is is in front of E main bass or A main bass? A documentation for an instrument could easily answer these type of questions.

 

[petch]

Do Italian CBAs follow the same convention? Is the convention followed by all brands and models or are there differences between brands?

This is how they come as standard, with all the C chords in the same row for example


I would expect Italian factories to make it in the bayan style with the shifted diminished row, if requested. Definitely ask beforehand!

 

[Tom]

well ok, but an inferior instrument DOES prevent many students
from becoming the better player they are capable of being

it is tough, when you are young and poor and stuck with
something you can easily outplay, to excel or even to be
inspired/motivated to try and excel

i have always advised Parents and Students alike when selecting
an instrument to please get the best one you can possibly afford..

People have different instead talents for different things. Generally speaking, they are better, and faster, at learning X than Y. I learned, and got very good at X in way shorter time than I got to my current level of Accordion Playing, even with inferior tools, relatively. Even when I got the best accordion I could afford, I never progressed as well, although I expected I would, given my success with X. I continue to beat my head against the wall with Accordion Playing, and even if I had two of Jerry’s mythical Golas I will never approach X. But that won’t stop me.

 

[JerryPH]

I continue to beat my head against the wall with Accordion Playing, and even if I had two of Jerry’s mythical Golas I will never approach X. But that won’t stop me.

LOL... yeah, playing 2 Gola's at a time is a skill that is way out of my league too. I'll point in Stewart's direction for that one, he's owned more Golas than I ever did!

 

[Walker]

and even if I had two of Jerry’s mythical Golas

Having owned and subsequently sold both a vintage Hohner Gola 414 and a vintage Scandalli Super VI, I have come to the conclusion that I don't need the "best" available accordion.

Right now I'm more into finding the "right" instrument (after reflecting on my own specific requirements).

What matters to me is great seasoned woods and better reeds, because tone quality is EVERYTHING. I also want reliable and smooth mechanics.

I have a theory that cassotto was historically used to enhance what would otherwise be a beautifully toned accordion. However, I am beginning to think cassotto has a different purpose nowadays - it is used to "mask" an otherwise average sounding accordion.

It's no wonder people are driven to search for the "best" accordions from 60+ years ago, like Jerry's mythical Gola. Quite right Jerry!​

 

[saundersbp]

I am beginning to think cassotto has a different purpose nowadays - it is used to "mask" an otherwise average sounding accordion.

How interesting, I've also had exactly the same thought at the back of my mind for some time too with new instruments....

 

[Walker]

Sadly the non-cassotto accordion is often considered a "students accordion" and is seen as something to be moved on from as quickly as possible.

1. 41 keys is often looked down upon (same goes for 46 button CBAs).
2. Non cassotto is considered inferior - but this is not always the case.
3. Everyone crows about mano reeds, but there is no effort put into the discerning selection of the "right" a mano reeds. People are happy as long as they have "a mano" regardless of what they sound like.

Now, if Bugari would produce a simple 380/SP/C but with the best of wood and best of reeds the results could be awesome. Pigini could easily do something similar too.

In fact I have a Pigini 55P/Senior. It is an instrument that would be considered a "study" instrument but it is actually very close to being a truly excellent accordion. The next model up adds cassotto. To me that's not the right move in this situation... the better move is the same instrument but with the most artisan made reeds available.

Here's a small example of how a simple accordion can give impressive results.

Introducing the accordionist and composer William Popp. Great work - it is quite avant-garde and certainly more sophisticated than anything I could do. I really like it but I'm not clever enough to know why.



I feel certain there are still makers who can produce simple accordions beautifully.​

 

[Tom]

Sadly the non-cassotto accordion is often considered a "students accordion" and is seen as something to be moved on from as quickly as possible.

1. 41 keys is often looked down upon (same goes for 46 button CBAs).
2. Non cassotto is considered inferior - but this is not always the case.
3. Everyone crows about mano reeds, but there is no effort put into the discerning selection of the "right" a mano reeds. People are happy as long as they have "a mano" regardless of what they sound like.

Now, if Bugari would produce a simple 380/SP/C but with the best of wood and best of reeds the results could be awesome. Pigini could easily do something similar too.

In fact I have a Pigini 55P/Senior. It is an instrument that would be considered a "study" instrument but it is actually very close to being a truly excellent accordion. The next model up adds cassotto. To me that's not the right move in this situation... the better move is the same instrument but with the most artisan made reeds available.

Here's a small example of how a simple accordion can give impressive results.

Introducing the accordionist and composer William Popp. Great work - it is quite avant-garde and certainly more sophisticated than anything I could do. I really like it but I'm not clever enough to know why.



I feel certain there are still makers who can produce simple accordions beautifully.​

Well, that was very interesting, I listened to the whole piece. Good on Mr. Popp. Interesting how he contrasts the high and low sounds. I generally think of music as more rhythmic and melodic but it’s good to have an open mind.

 

[Walker]

He's awesome, ain't he! I am a big fan of Popp's music...

Here's something a little more melodic:

 

[Tom]

He's awesome, ain't he! I am a big fan of Popp's music...

Here's something a little more melodic:

Yeah much more relaxing! Gotta check this guy out more.. So much music, so little time.....

 

[Walker]

All the more impressive that it's all played on a 41 key, non cassotto instrument. Goes to show not everyone needs the "best" to create great music.

 

[debra]

Remember: an expensive instrument does not make you a better player

Very true. Even the opposite can be true. A very expensive accordion will have a very easy to use smooth keyboard (and bass) mechanism, and when you are used to that and then have to play something on a "lesser" accordion with a not so smooth keyboard it may be difficult. When I was learning to play the piano I studied and practiced on a piano that was a bit "heavy on the touch" and then performed on a piano that was lighter. That made performing quite a bit easier. If you did the reverse the performances would terrible.
Besides the mechanics, a very expensive and well-maintained accordion may spoil you by having immediate response on all the notes. On an accordion with not so perfect response (usually due to voicing issues) you learn to be aware of the differences between the notes and how to adapt to them. You end up being a more precise listener to what happens while you play.

 

[debra]

One of the reason I asked about the documentation for an instrument is to know where the diminished seventhchord is located on Italian CBAs. In Russian bayans the diminished seventhchord is located one button/row below the main bass to reduce the distance between a bass and a seventhchord e. g. Cd is in front of F, Gd is in front of C. Do Italian CBAs follow the same convention? Is the convention followed by all brands and models or are there differences between brands?

Where does the C is located on a free bass B-griff of Italian CBAs? Is is in front of E main bass or A main bass? A documentation for an instrument could easily answer these type of questions.

The location of the diminished is on the same diagonal row as the base note in all Italian 2+4 accordions by default. (Special orders are possible.)
The location of the diminished is one row down on all Russian 2+4 accordions by default. Special orders are also possible here. My Russian AKKO bayan follows the Italian convention because I knew to order it that way (the "Stradella" way). A friend of mine ordered a Zonta bayan (from Belarus) and didn't know about this difference and sure enough he received a bayan with the diminished chords one row down.

 

[Ventura]

Very true. Even the opposite can be true. A very expensive accordion will have a very easy to use smooth keyboard (and bass) mechanism, and when you are used to that and then have to play something on a "lesser" accordion with a not so smooth keyboard it may be difficult. When I was learning to play the piano I studied and practiced on a piano that was a bit "heavy on the touch" and then performed on a piano that was lighter. That made performing quite a bit easier. If you did the reverse the performances would terrible.
Besides the mechanics, a very expensive and well-maintained accordion may spoil you by having immediate response on all the notes. On an accordion with not so perfect response (usually due to voicing issues) you learn to be aware of the differences between the notes and how to adapt to them. You end up being a more precise listener to what happens while you play.

i do see your points, but because my retail background dealt a lot
with institutional as well as private family Student concerns, i lean
in the other direction. Young people don't yet understand
the world isn't perfect, or fair, and so inferior instruments to THEM
really are severely limiting because they do not yet know what you
as an adult have learned over time and many instruments

they just know their instrument sucks, and respond accordingly

 

[debra]

i do see your points, but because my retail background dealt a lot
with institutional as well as private family Student concerns, i lean
in the other direction. Young people don't yet understand
the world isn't perfect, or fair, and so inferior instruments to THEM
really are severely limiting because they do not yet know what you
as an adult have learned over time and many instruments

they just know their instrument sucks, and respond accordingly

Well... not having the very best instrument has rarely stopped children from learning music.
Of course you should not have an instrument that sucks, but as long as it is usable, playable and sounds pretty much OK that should do.
When I studied the piano we had a decent upright piano at home. It did not play and sound like the (baby) grand piano at the music school, but it was perfectly ok for study. The same applies to accordions. It's ok for students to know that their accordion is a lower level instrument than their teacher's accordion. The teacher can also play their accordion and let them hear what their accordion can achieve, and then it's up to the student to try and achieve the same. There are enough good-enough playable affordable accordions (mostly chinese) to keep children who learn to play happy and enthusiastic. The children don't have to know that their parents are killing the Italian accordion industry by not buying an Italian student model accordion... but they may find out later...

 

[OuijaBoard]

]]]Sadly the non-cassotto accordion is often considered a "students accordion" and is seen as something to be moved on from as quickly as possible.

1. 41 keys is often looked down upon (same goes for 46 button CBAs).
2. Non cassotto is considered inferior - but this is not always the case.[[[

This is so true, and I find it hilarious. Harmful to the accordion's worldwide future, because these big heavy accordions are not what flies off the shelves these days and that stigmatizing attitude on the part of gatekeepers puts potential players off the accordion, but that's another discussion.

Cassotto accordions are great, though hardly necessary, for refined music with a dry or almost dry tuning. Especially if it's multi-voiced chordal music. Bach, or that type of chordal jazz I think of as the "midcentury-martini-lounge" sound. But lots of other genres, such as dance-based world music, sound denuded and de-natured by cassotto. Listening to "Sakkijarven Polkka" being played on these 20-switch cassotto freebass accordions makes me want to poke my eyes out with a stick. Nobody is gonna dance, break the glassware, or repel the Soviet invaders to that.

 

[dak]

The location of the diminished is on the same diagonal row as the base note in all Italian 2+4 accordions by default. (Special orders are possible.)
The location of the diminished is one row down on all Russian 2+4 accordions by default. Special orders are also possible here. My Russian AKKO bayan follows the Italian convention because I knew to order it that way (the "Stradella" way). A friend of mine ordered a Zonta bayan (from Belarus) and didn't know about this difference and sure enough he received a bayan with the diminished chords one row down.

Interestingly, this is how my C system main instrument does it. I actually don't find it too hard to adapt from one to the other. One advantage is that you can play a full seventh chord (including root and fifth) by plunking down (say) both g7 and c° with one finger. Is that important? Not really. Playing a full diminished chord by playing, say, cm and c° has a somewhat more relaxed hand position.

Of course what would be more of a deal-breaker for B system players would be the difference between rotated and mirrored B system for the left hand, with the low notes at the top like Italians would do it or the low notes at the bottom like Russians would do it.