Best Italian brands for high-end CBA converter (bayan)

[Ventura]

while the solenoid and software controlled bass sections have
obvious configuration similarity, unlike the Roland, you cannot
change the PITCH of the basic 12 reeds, as they were physically
chosen and installed at the factory

so re-mapping solenoids cannot give you a different "lowest note"
and may change the artificial break-point but in a very narrow range

nor can you "couple" to a different/layered set of tones or add percussion
without linking to an external device

so the two systems are not at all equivalent in their flexibility

 

[dak]

while the solenoid and software controlled bass sections have
obvious configuration similarity, unlike the Roland, you cannot
change the PITCH of the basic 12 reeds, as they were physically
chosen and installed at the factory

so re-mapping solenoids cannot give you a different "lowest note"
and may change the artificial break-point but in a very narrow range

nor can you "couple" to a different/layered set of tones or add percussion
without linking to an external device

so the two systems are not at all equivalent in their flexibility

That's the case for normal standard bass systems but I don't think that those are the main target for this kind of generality. In a converter bass, choosing the breaks at least in the chord octaves makes a lot of sense, even if the number of actual bass reeds and bass reed chambers may be given.

My own "pick a chord octave" instrument lets the 1 or 2 chord octaves start anywhere between A2 and E4 at the player's choice, using mechanics to achieve that. For my recent posting of "Oblivion", I put the chord octave at G3 which makes sure that the most important bass runs don't wrap at bad points.

Apart from the bass octave, the reeds and reed chambers in a converter tend to gradually change sound and timbre, while in a pure standard bass instrument, reeds and reed chambers of one reed bank tend to be the same size. That makes the octave break on a converter more conspicious. The solenoid approach makes things more workable here: I can see that. The mechanical solution in my instrument never was attractive enough to make it into more than single instruments.

 

[debra]

And it won't help people used to playing Belgian bass either. But they are a dying species I think. There is a point in consolidation. The sad thing is that the most definite want I have seen for being able to change systems on the fly is on accordion conventions when people want to try out other people's instruments. And there is not much of a point in it if all the instruments sound the same because of the same sound patches inside.

...

You can select Belgian bass, and the fact that the buttons are in diagonal rows is not a big issue. When you buy a convertor accordion with Belgian bass, expect to get it with diagonal rows so the convertor works as one might expect. (I have briefly tried one that came in for tuning.)
With the Roland the sound is exactly the same whether you use a piano accordion, C system CBA, B system or anything else. With a "real" accordion the sound from a very similar model accordion with piano keyboard, C system or B system is all a bit different, and this is because the distribution of the reeds (notes) over the reed blocks is different. Especially the blocks in cassotto have different sound, and it differs enough that I can recognize PA, C-CBA and B-CBA just by listening to the M register being played.

 

[dak]

You can select Belgian bass, and the fact that the buttons are in diagonal rows is not a big issue. When you buy a convertor accordion with Belgian bass, expect to get it with diagonal rows so the convertor works as one might expect. (I have briefly tried one that came in for tuning.)

Color me surprised. You learn something new every day.

With the Roland the sound is exactly the same whether you use a piano accordion, C system CBA, B system or anything else. With a "real" accordion the sound from a very similar model accordion with piano keyboard, C system or B system is all a bit different, and this is because the distribution of the reeds (notes) over the reed blocks is different. Especially the blocks in cassotto have different sound, and it differs enough that I can recognize PA, C-CBA and B-CBA just by listening to the M register being played.

Well, it's more of a bug (or artifact) than a feature. I would consider it an advantage if Roland were able to ditch that heritage. Given that its various accordion instruments have fixed bass octaves while its orchestral instruments don't, I suspect that they may have sampled individual notes. In that case, a listener with your kind of expertise might even be able to identify the respective original instrument layouts.

 

[debra]

...

Well, it's more of a bug (or artifact) than a feature. I would consider it an advantage if Roland were able to ditch that heritage. Given that its various accordion instruments have fixed bass octaves while its orchestral instruments don't, I suspect that they may have sampled individual notes. In that case, a listener with your kind of expertise might even be able to identify the respective original instrument layouts.

If Roland were using true sampled individual notes then the V-accordion would have resembled the sound of an acoustic accordion better than it does now. When I hear a song (using only accordion sound, preferably a single M reed or something like LM or MH) without looking it takes me about 3 seconds to distinguish a Roland from a real acoustic accordion. That's how accurate the sound reproduction actually is...

 

[dak]

If Roland were using true sampled individual notes then the V-accordion would have resembled the sound of an acoustic accordion better than it does now. When I hear a song (using only accordion sound, preferably a single M reed or something like LM or MH) without looking it takes me about 3 seconds to distinguish a Roland from a real acoustic accordion. That's how accurate the sound reproduction actually is...

I have to take your word for it. I only have a first-generation FR-1b, and the thing that doesn't work well for me on it is "sculpting" long notes. My impression is that the acoustic instruments have less volume range but quite more of a sound quality range (and gradation). They just react to pressure in a more complex manner than what the instrument models. Later generations may well be better in that regard but I don't really know.

 

[debra]

I have to take your word for it. I only have a first-generation FR-1b, and the thing that doesn't work well for me on it is "sculpting" long notes. My impression is that the acoustic instruments have less volume range but quite more of a sound quality range (and gradation). They just react to pressure in a more complex manner than what the instrument models. Later generations may well be better in that regard but I don't really know.

The quality of reeds, correct voicing and the right valves and valve adjustment (contrapelli) are major factors in the dynamic range of an acoustic accordion. On some (either lower end or badly maintained) accordions you cannot play very softly because the reeds either don't start well or sound out of tune at low volume. At high volume you may get distortion or sagging lower notes. For instance, when you hear an orchestra where most players play a Hohner Morino you tend to hear only a range that I would classify as mezzo-piano to forte. There is no piano or pianissimo because the reeds are not reliable for playing that softly, and there is no fortissimo because as you pull harder the sound doesn't really get louder. Jerry can attest that the dynamic range of his Gola is larger than that of other accordions. My bayan also has reeds that start very well and that can still play very loud as well.
A digital accordion does not necessarily give you more dynamic range, but in practice it does: just like with a digital piano, it doesn't matter how softly you pull on the bellows or on the piano push down on a key, it will always sound. That allows you to play very softly without having to train a lot to always get sound. On the fortissimo side how loud you can go with digital depends mostly on power of the amp and speakers to get a clean sound without distortion.

 

[dak]

The quality of reeds, correct voicing and the right valves and valve adjustment (contrapelli) are major factors in the dynamic range of an acoustic accordion. On some (either lower end or badly maintained) accordions you cannot play very softly because the reeds either don't start well or sound out of tune at low volume. At high volume you may get distortion or sagging lower notes. For instance, when you hear an orchestra where most players play a Hohner Morino you tend to hear only a range that I would classify as mezzo-piano to forte. There is no piano or pianissimo because the reeds are not reliable for playing that softly, and there is no fortissimo because as you pull harder the sound doesn't really get louder. Jerry can attest that the dynamic range of his Gola is larger than that of other accordions. My bayan also has reeds that start very well and that can still play very loud as well.
A digital accordion does not necessarily give you more dynamic range, but in practice it does: just like with a digital piano, it doesn't matter how softly you pull on the bellows or on the piano push down on a key, it will always sound. That allows you to play very softly without having to train a lot to always get sound. On the fortissimo side how loud you can go with digital depends mostly on power of the amp and speakers to get a clean sound without distortion.

Well, for me the difference is that on an acoustic accordion, bellows pressure does not work like a volume control even if it also affects volume. The louder tone is quite different from the quieter tone: I presume that as the excitation of the reed grows, it spends less time in the cut-off phase of the air flow, resulting in more overtone content. For a percussive instrument, you can get by with multisampling and a mixture of volume control and sample selection. For a continuous-note instrument like an accordion, I would think you want smarter strategies for morphing between the sounds for less and more pressure: the reed wave form is affected quite non-linearly while reed chamber and other sound-shaping elements work mostly linearly with rising volume. And with that first-generation V-accordion, I feel like I have an overexcitable volume control and not much of a tone control. That works better (in singing terms) for coloratura singing than for messa di voce. The typical accordion music involves fast virtuoso play, and that comes out pretty well. I am a bad player, so I focus more on slow expressive stuff.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

sheesh
one would think people who do high end photography could do simple math

the AA simulator models are designed to equal ALKALINE not NiMh
and are clearly marketed as such.. those people have not a leg to stand on..

Normal single cell LiPo are mostly a different size than other batteries, and equipment
being designed that uses them won't accept AA, AAA, C, or D sizes so they should
wait for Flash units that incorporate the new dimensions. These will come because
one feature of LiPo is high current fast discharge which is being taken advantage
of in other areas (like portable 12 Volt Jump starters and camping Power Pack inverters)

i continue to use LiPo in the FR4x eclusively, and i seem to recall you retrofitted
your Roland for LiPo as well ? neither were designed for them, but we did the math !

You use LiPo in the 4x? First I’m hearing of it. I don’t intend to leave my house with my 4x, so I run it on the AC adaptor only.

But, LiPo just might be a game changer.

Well, that's fine if five people have to play the same instrument.

Organ builders are going back to mechanically linked keyboards because of a better connection with the instrument. In the age of electric and electronic keyboards, the connection with the instrument is sort of a selling point for accordion. It's sort of a headscratcher that the Bugari Evo sells because of mechanically linked pallets and Beltuna goes to selenoid activation.

organ builders also have to contend with the fact that in many installations, the pipes and the mechanisms to activate them are relatively remote from the console. A delay of even a few milliseconds becomes obvious to an organist. Mechanical linkages mean that the pipes are relatively close to the console, which works only for relatively small organs.

 

[Walker]

Hi,

What Italian brands and why would you suggest considering before buying a high-end CBA converter (bayan) with the below requirements

• It must be a converter
• Both hands must be a B griff
• High quality sound (possibly hand-made reeds)
• Pleasant and durable keyboard mechanics
• Reliable and robust overall design and build known to last
• Budget 12k-22k EUR
• Reactive and professional support services

After an investigation I've identified the following Italian brands that are of interest

• Pigini
• Bugari
• Scandalli (however they are more focused on PA)

I'm specifically interested in general tendencies between these brands and the new ones you suggest e. g.

• Overall quality of instruments from each brand in this price range
• Sound quality in terms of sharp/mellow sound, specific design of right/left hand reeds or keyboard mechanics (harder, softer), what reeds go in a cassotto that may produce specific effects not found in other brands, stronger/softer bass, etc
• Best brands for folk, classical, or jazz music
• Balance between innovation and well-tested solutions
• Well known issues that frequently happen to instruments
• Issues with customer support for these brands
• Any other important information that you would like to know before making a purchase decision

Hi Volodymyr,

Did you decide on an accordion? I sensed you liked Bugari Armando and Pigini

 

[saundersbp]

Organ builders are going back to mechanically linked keyboards because of a better connection with the instrument. In the age of electric and electronic keyboards, the connection with the instrument is sort of a selling point for accordion. It's sort of a headscratcher that the Bugari Evo sells because of mechanically linked pallets and Beltuna goes to selenoid activation.

This is true, the majority of new organs seem to have reverted to mechanical action. Huge musical advantage in terms of physical intimacy between player and instrument. It also makes sense financially as you are not worrying about solenoids and computers packing in after a few years and cosmic replacement bills.

If Roland were using true sampled individual notes then the V-accordion would have resembled the sound of an acoustic accordion better than it does now.

I guess it's just old technology inside these v-accordions. Roland also made electronic church organs around the same time (and suspect with the same sound engine) but they never gained traction and have been totally dropped. The new Roland v-drums however are a much better experience and also non-Roland Hauptwerk software for home organs is pretty amazing. Interestingly though huge efforts are put into making each instrument feel as good as it sounds.

Mechanical linkages mean that the pipes are relatively close to the console, which works only for relatively small organs.

There's an awful lot of very large organs, new and old, with mechanical linkages in the great Cathedrals of Europe!

 

[debra]

...
I guess it's just old technology inside these v-accordions. Roland also made electronic church organs around the same time (and suspect with the same sound engine) but they never gained traction and have been totally dropped. The new Roland v-drums however are a much better experience and also non-Roland Hauptwerk software for home organs is pretty amazing. Interestingly though huge efforts are put into making each instrument feel as good as it sounds.
...

When people started building the first electronic (and later digital) pianos they used "sound modeling" and not "sound sampling". My first digital piano was the top of the line Roland piano (passed down to me by my sister who was a piano teacher). It wasn't bad, but not quite "the real thing". Roland used modeling instead of sampling, at a time other digital piano makers were already using sound sampling. I think Roland struggled to make that move mainly because they needed to find a piano maker who wood allow them to use the sound of their pianos.
My sister's next piano was a Roland that had sampled sound from the Fazioli grand piano. It sounded much better. The Fazioli grand pianos have a very nice sound, but not everyone likes it as much because it sounds clearly different from say a Steinway or Yamaha grand piano.
I now have a Yamaha digital piano and am very happy at how it sounds (just like a Yamaha grand). The sounds Roland is allowed to sample make or break their digital instruments. I think that this is where they also struggled with the V-accordion and my suspicion is they have given up (hence no new models since the FR4 came out in 2016). I was very disappointed to find out that when the Bugari Evo came out it did not have a "Bugari sound set" that potentially could have made it sell like hot cakes. A Bugari representative said that "it was not the aim to produce the Bugari sound" but I'm pretty sure it was more a dispute over what Bugari was allowed to do. The abilities to add new sounds to the Evo are also limited compared to the Fr8x, probably to really prevent people to put sampled Bugari sounds in that V-accordion.
Coming back to the title of this thread: "Best Italian brands for high-end CBA converter (bayan)", the answer could have been the Bugari Evo if Bugari had the permission and ability to give you Bugari sound in the Evo.