Diminished row? 80 vs 72

[vaeel]

Im about to buy my first accordion but im unsure about wich size should i buy or if ill need the dimished row or not. i plan on playing popular songs, tango, a little classical, and maybe some french music. Do you think ill need the dimished row for that styles? Wich one will suit me better 80, 72 or maybe a 96? (dont want to go full 120)

 

[debra]

When you get a properly made 80 bass accordion the 7th will double up as a diminished. Most accordions only give you 3-note chords so while C7 is C-E-G-Bb they will give you either C-E-Bb (fifth missing, which is good if you have a diminished row) or E-G-Bb (base note missing, which is good is you have no diminished row as this doubles up as Gdim).
There are 80 bass accordions with a full 7th chord. If you happen to get one of those you have to go in and remove the base note from the 7th chords (break off the pins), which is best done by an accordion repair person.
The more important difference between an 80 bass and a 72 bass is that with 80 bass you have 16 rows, so on each "end" you have two spares (repeats) that give you flexibility whereas a 72 bass has 12 rows, meaning no redundancy, which is more limiting. Another common difference is that the treble side of a 72 bass may have fewer notes (34) than that of an 80 bass (37).
With 80 or 96 you most likely get the same number of notes (37). For learning and maybe later stepping up a 96 bass is the best option. And of course a CBA (button accordion) is always a better option than a PA (piano accordion) because in a more compact instrument you get more notes. You can get a 96 bass accordion with up to about 46 notes on the treble side (41 or 42 being common as well) versus the 37 of a PA.

 

[donn]

When you get a properly made 80 bass accordion the 7th will double up as a diminished. Most accordions only give you 3-note chords so while C7 is C-E-G-Bb they will give you either C-E-Bb (fifth missing, which is good if you have a diminished row) or E-G-Bb (base note missing, which is good is you have no diminished row as this doubles up as Gdim).

Is there any way to guess, ahead of time, whether your prospective accordion might have this feature? Im assuming that we all buy by mail order these days.

There are 80 bass accordions with a full 7th chord. If you happen to get one of those you have to go in and remove the base note from the 7th chords (break off the pins), which is best done by an accordion repair person.

I think in this case Id just resign myself to living without diminished chords on the bass. It wouldnt be hard for me - I dont have a really massive repertoire of tunes, but only one of them actually uses diminished, only once, and when I watched someone else play it, he did that diminished on the right hand anyway. But lots and lots of dominant 7s. I always learn tunes from audio, never from someone elses written transcription, and it may well be that even when the diminished chord was played, I hear something else (except for that one tune.)

Its an interesting idea though - with only two notes in a chord, youd have a much wider range of possible combinations, at the expense of the chord alone becoming more ambiguous. I have a vague recollection that someone tried that - with all the chords, not just the dominant 7.

 

[debra]

With an 80 bass accordion you can never be 100% sure whether the 7th is configured so that it can double as a diminished, whether it is "full" so it can be "fixed" (by removing some pins) or whether it is a regular 1-3-7 that cannot be converted to a 7th that doubles as diminished.
I got a "scrap" Bianco Freres 80 bass accordion that had the "full" 7th (and fixed it). My first accordion was an 80 bass Crucianelli (we are talking end of the sixties...) and it had the 7th that could double as a diminished. I also have an old 40 bass Crucianelli with the right 7th to double as diminished. I would expect that major Italian brands would give you that.
But I for instance also saw a 40 bass Galotta with the "standard 1-3-7 7th" so no way to play diminished on that.
Obviously your best bet is to get a 96 bass accordion.

 

[maugein96]

Vaeel,

I have both types of box, with and without dim7 row. If the dim7 chord isn't there than I cannot use it and that's the only logic I can apply. At my level of incompetence, considering most of the stuff I attempt to play moves along at a fair rate, then I just do what I can.

Most French boxes, but not all, don't have dim7 chords and I don't know what they do to "cheat". In my case, on a five row 80 or 100 bass, I usually end up with a finger in fresh air off the bass keyboard looking for a button that isn't there. Fortunately I haven't suffered any serious injury as a result, and I hope that situation continues.

I suppose if you were playing for an audience full of accordion critics, then any note, chord, or other interjection that "just shouldn't be there" will be spoken about for the next 20 minutes or so.

Several of my family and I used to breed and show singing canaries. Not a single bird could sing the whole repertoire, but they all did their best. Any that were really poor performers with bad "faults" ended up in the pet shop fast before the other birds copied their faults. In those days (over 50 years ago) my ear could detect which bird was good and which wasn't. By the time I was 35 I could hardly have told you whether the singing bird was a canary, a parrot, or a cockatoo. These days I just take my boxes out of their cases and play them as they are, without worrying about what notes are in my bass chords. If I get sent to the pet shop I just hope I end up in a good home!

As the famous Scottish player, Sir Jimmy Shand would have said, "I hear what you're saying son, but you'll just get the tune the way I can play it!"

As Paul has indicated, a 96 bass accordion in standard 4x2 configuration (16 rows with a row of dim7 chords) will give you all the options, and avoid you buying an instrument that isn't suitable for the styles you play. Your mention of "classical" would tend to suggest 96 bass as your best option.

 

[jozz]

Do you think ill need the dimished row for that styles? Wich one will suit me better 80, 72 or maybe a 96? (dont want to go full 120)

You will be fine without. For your purposes, the 72 will limit your basses more than the 80 over the 96. Later on, when youve got more experience on either, you will know what your second instrument needs to be.

 

[dunlustin]

I'd just like to add a bit more:
The buttons on each RH row of a C system CBA are in effect a repeating Dim chord.
Also, many players have gone through a pro career without using Dim chords, so perhaps that's not the main choice.
The limitation of a 72 bass box will mainly be apparent if want to continue an oom-pa 3chord LHand regardless of the key you are in. Example: If you want to play in F#, you have the I and IV but not the V chord which is at the other end of the basses.
So, 72 gives you each chord once and the full chromatic bass octave - Probably enough to be dealing with as a starter.
If you could find a 3 by 3 (bass and chord) rather than a 2 by 4 ( = no dedicated Dim row) that would make fingering minor keys easier - but that's icing on the cake and definitely not a deal breaker, just depends on what's around in your market.
A 72 bass instrument is quite bulky enough to begin on and for me, bulk is a big consideration when starting out.
And just to contradict myself: an 80 bass gives some repeats so helps with the flexibility but doesn't have a dedicated dim row and probably isn't any bulkier.
Or, in a word: accordions are never simple!

 

[JeffJetton]

Also, many players have gone through a pro career without using Dim chords, so perhaps thats not the main choice.
The limitation of a 72 bass box will mainly be apparent if want to [...] play in F#

Then again, I suppose many players have gone through a pro career without playing in F#!

I find the dim button quite handy, myself. After all, lots of popular accordion songs have diminished chords: Thats Amore, Clarinet Polka, Fascination, Sharpshooters March, Take Me Out to the Ballgame, etc.

Granted, a 7th chord row thats voiced 3-5-b7 can function as a diminished row. But as Ive mentioned before, a true diminished chord row can usually act as a minor 6 chord row too. You can also combine it with other bass notes to get a 7(b9) chord. This added flexibility is super-useful if you ever intend to play any sort of jazz (traditional, gypsy, etc.)

 

[dunlustin]

For vaeel:
My attempt at humour (eg F#) failed.
A 72 bass will be fine for a good while and given your interests maybe forever - and most 72s have a dim row anyway.
There's plenty of work to be had learning where the notes are, managing the bellows, controlling the beast, learning runs on the lefthand, when not to play.....
But best of all you are embarking on a venture which should last a lifetime and which I'm sure you will find fascinating.
Good luck!

 

[donn]

Granted, a 7th chord row thats voiced 3-5-b7 can function as a diminished row. But as Ive mentioned before, a true diminished chord row can usually act as a minor 6 chord row too.

That 3-5-b7 is exactly what your true diminished chord row has on it - just off one column. We only call it a 7th chord row, because thats its principle use, despite the alleged usefulness of diminished chords. What I expected to see were combinations that are available only with the 7th chord as voiced in 2/4 Stradella - thats 1-3-b7 isnt it?

 

[JeffJetton]

Huh. You are correct. For some reason I was thinking about the notes a different (wrong) way.

Yes, on a 2/4 Stradella you usually get a 1-3-b7 voicing for your 7th chord row. The main advantage I notice with that is that, since the 5th is missing, you can add altered 5th notes in your RH to get 7th(b5) and 7th(#5) chords without having the perfect 5th in the LH clash.