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Diminished chord substitute

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Dmin with the counterbass of G..gets you the Bminflat5....an easy natural fingering in some songs ..all efforts are worth it in the end...and minflat5's are essential ammunition in my shooters....
 
losthobos post_id=61914 time=1534101511 user_id=729 said:
Dmin with the counterbass of G..gets you the Bminflat5....an easy natural fingering in some songs ..all efforts are worth it in the end...and minflat5s are essential ammunition in my shooters....

Terry,

I believe he told me to hit Dmin plus something else that was a bit of a stretch, but Ive now forgotten what it was. May have been the Jack of Spades!

He reckons hell be able to teach me the language that you guys speak, but it might take about 30 years or so!

This clip of Jimmy Bruno sums it up (for me). I can play all that stuff he does in the clip on guitar (obviously not as good as he does), but I havent the faintest notion about all of the gobbledegook he speaks. If I can remember it all Ill manage it, but if Im supposed to play it by application of any sort of thought process or rules at all, then I cant do it, end of story. In other words I can watch him and copy him, but dont ask me to tell you what Im actually doing using music theory.

The bit I like best is throwing out the books, but it seems Ill need to work on that memory.

 
He probably told you to play the B on first row and the Dmin as normal...sure bit of stretch but allows a quick flip of the fingers to the E7 which I the normal preceding chord...
Don't be mistaken in thinking I understand theory...my rule is if it sounds right it probably is....but I do have lots of little tricks that repeat...mist of the progressions go either up or down in a pretty preordained fashion...best blame Bach....so once you spot the progression you can spot the trick/cheats....
 
Terry,

My experience of the classics is pretty much non-existent, although I do remember reading that Jo Privat was influenced by Bach as well. Wonder what pub they both drank in?

I liken the Stradella bass system to the Enigma Code. If you have a mathematical brain and are pretty methodical then I suppose you should be able to work it out in a decade or two. I just use the buttons they way they are labelled and any notation that doesn't correspond exactly with a button is ignored.

My guitars have 21 or 22 frets and I know what I'm going to get when I put my left fingers anywhere on the fretboard. With Stradella my left fingers seem to be as effective as a tray of sausages in a butcher's shop window. Right hand is perfectly logical and even "doable" most of the time. Left hand is a lottery, even after over 30 years of trying. Maybe that's the clue I've been missing all along. Put the accordions away and get back on guitar!
 
Morne said:
My 6 row Morino IV M has the typical fifth-less 7 chord.

As far as Hohner is concerned, when they made 5 rows they made them specifically so that those 7 chords would be dual purpose. Here is a diagram from a 1937 catalogue:
Hohner1937_11

And with 140 basses, apparently - interesting that 140 would be a superset of 80, not 120, with an augmented row and the third bass row (though offset one column, perhaps guided by someone who understood the point of the third row but didnt actually use it.)
 
losthobos post_id=61925 time=1534142154 user_id=729 said:
He probably told you to play the B on first row and the Dmin as normal...sure bit of stretch but allows a quick flip of the fingers to the E7 which I the normal preceding chord...

But if you did play the B-7(b5) the way its normally played (counterbass of G plus Dm chord), then you can use a favorite trick of mine: Play the E7 as E (the counterbass of C) plus the F dim button.

I like this for three reasons:

  • Its easier to move to from the B-7(b5)
  • It actually winds up creating a E7(b9) chord, which almost always sounds great in that minor-key context
  • It is then easy to move to what is frequently the next chord: A-7, played as A (counter bass of F) plus C major chord. (Although its still no biggie to decide to hop over to the regular Am chord if you wanted... perhaps combined with the A dim button to create an Am6!)
 
I'm sure I was told to play Dmin + E7? I honestly can't remember but I'll check next time I see him. Turned out Dmin on its own worked for the particular tune I was playing, "La Montmartroise" by Jean Peyronnin.

I haven't been keeping a tally, but it seems obvious that different players have their own take on how to play 7th flat 5.

It takes me all my time to play the bass buttons just as they are, and as I have no knowledge of music theory I cannot follow the reasoning behind most of the suggestions offered.

I'm just off to look for a forum on nuclear physics, as I reckon I might have a better chance on there! :?
 
JeffJetton post_id=61948 time=1534184402 user_id=1774 said:
But if you did play the B-7(b5) the way its normally played (counterbass of G plus Dm chord), then you can use a favorite trick of mine: Play the E7 as E (the counterbass of C) plus the F dim button.

I like this for three reasons:

  • Its easier to move to from the B-7(b5)
  • It actually winds up creating a E7(b9) chord, which almost always sounds great in that minor-key context
  • It is then easy to move to what is frequently the next chord: A-7, played as A (counter bass of F) plus C major chord. (Although its still no biggie to decide to hop over to the regular Am chord if you wanted... perhaps combined with the A dim button to create an Am6!)
Wonderful approach....ive been dabbling with Chet Bakers Lets Get Lost for years and never managed to get a decent left hand as the first few bars have that change in and real difficult to get up to speed with big leaps....your solution has opened up the score....many thanks...

John...if playing on 3x3 box then we need to play an G7 rather than the Fdim due to the stacking of notes on french boxes
 
losthobos post_id=61966 time=1534229207 user_id=729 said:
John...if playing on 3x3 box then we need to play an A7 rather than the Fdim due to the stacking of notes on french boxes

Terry,

Never had a 3x3. Used to think they were essential for French until I saw a lot of pros playing 5 row 80 and 100 bass boxes way back before the Vikings had engines in their boats.

Nearly bought a red Piermaria with 3x3, but staff in the Scottish shop who were selling it talked me out of it saying Id have a hell of a trouble selling it again if I didnt like it. never said I might have a hell of a job playing it!

Think Ill watch from the sidelines with this one now. I feel like a draughts (checkers) player trying to take part in a discussion about chess moves!

My teacher keeps telling me I ve got to think ahead. If Id done that over 30 years ago Id never have bought an accordion!
 
Many forum members are undoubtedly aware of this interesting fact about diminished seventh chords (working through this little exercise helped to simplify my understanding of diminished chords many years ago):

There are only three different diminished seventh chords. This can be easily demonstrated by playing sequential four note diminished seventh chords (consisting of root, minor 3rd, minor 5th and 6th) on a keyboard while moving up the chromatic scale. Begin by playing the C diminished seventh chord. As you move up chromatically you will produce different chords at C, C#, and D, but when you reach Eb you will find that that chord uses the same note components which were used on the C diminished seventh (a different inversion but the same notes) and those three chords will then be continuously repeated over and over while moving up the chromatic scale. So there are actually just three different note combinations that make up the twelve different diminished seventh chords. To make the point in a different way: (1) C, Eb, F#, and A diminished seventh chords are all different inversions of the same chord, (2) C#, E, G, and Bb are likewise the same, and (3)D, F, Ab and B make up the third group of identical chords.

So, to address our diminished chord substitution question, here’s the reality: if your accordion has no diminished seventh row on the bass side but does happen to have voicing which omits the root from its seventh chords, any seventh chord button can be substituted for any one of four different diminished seventh chords. C7 will work for C#dim, Edim, Gdim or Bbdim; F7 will work for F#dim, Adim, Cdim or Ebdim, and G7 will work for Abdim, Bdim, Ddim and Fdim … etc., etc. BUT, if your accordion’s seventh chords include the root, you’re out of luck and none of your buttons will be compatible with any diminished seventh chord, so you’ll need to create your own diminished chords by playing appropriate single bass (or treble) notes.
 
DonN5LZ post_id=62033 time=1534535075 user_id=3110 said:
Many forum members are undoubtedly aware of this interesting fact about diminished seventh chords (working through this little exercise helped to simplify my understanding of diminished chords many years ago):

There are only three different diminished seventh chords. This can be easily demonstrated by playing sequential four note diminished seventh chords (consisting of root, minor 3rd, minor 5th and 6th) on a keyboard while moving up the chromatic scale. Begin by playing the C diminished seventh chord. As you move up chromatically you will produce different chords at C, C#, and D, but when you reach Eb you will find that that chord uses the same note components which were used on the C diminished seventh (a different inversion but the same notes) and those three chords will then be continuously repeated over and over while moving up the chromatic scale. So there are actually just three different note combinations that make up the twelve different diminished seventh chords. To make the point in a different way: (1) C, Eb, F#, and A diminished seventh chords are all different inversions of the same chord, (2) C#, E, G, and Bb are likewise the same, and (3)D, F, Ab and B make up the third group of identical chords.

So, to address our diminished chord substitution question, here’s the reality: if your accordion has no diminished seventh row on the bass side but does happen to have voicing which omits the root from its seventh chords, any seventh chord button can be substituted for any one of four different diminished seventh chords. C7 will work for C#dim, Edim, Gdim or Bbdim; F7 will work for F#dim, Adim, Cdim or Ebdim, and G7 will work for Abdim, Bdim, Ddim and Fdim … etc., etc. BUT, if your accordion’s seventh chords include the root, you’re out of luck and none of your buttons will be compatible with any diminished seventh chord, so you’ll need to create your own diminished chords by playing appropriate single bass (or treble) notes.

Likewise, there are only four diminished triads.

But, again, getting back to the initial question, what is the melody note that was being played along with the C bass and the F dominant seventh chord?

Alan
 
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