Diminished chord substitute

[donn]

30 posts and still spiraling around in confusion. As pentaprism observes, C + F7 makes F7, given the usual 7th voicing. Does anyone have a 5 row piano accordion and the ability to tell what comes out when you play F7?

 

[jarvo]

30 posts and still spiraling around in confusion. As pentaprism observes, C + F7 makes F7, given the usual 7th voicing. Does anyone have a 5 row piano accordion and the ability to tell what comes out when you play F7?

Er, F7....not wishing to be obtuse or do you mean which notes/tones have made that F7.....?

 

[jarvo]

Hang on ...how can F7 and C make a Cdim.........?

C dim is root C, Eb , Gb and then A if you want a fourth......F7 obviously has its root in F .......then A C Eb ....surely it wont make a C diminished...how ?

http://piano.about.com/od/chordskeys/ss/dim_triads_treble_2.htm

you need the gb and eb to get the tone, surely.....Im not particularly bothered about being right ,just want to make sure that I have it right about the make up of the chord ....my theory is slowing coming back to roost !!

Jarvo

 

[Glenn]

If you don't have a dim row then just try it.
If C+F7 sound naff then it's not an accordion that can use that technique.
I think it's pretty obvious when it doesn't work.

 

[donn]

Im not particularly bothered about being right ,just want to make sure that I have it right about the make up of the chord

No, youre quite right*, its just that the 7th row may omit the root note - not on your accordion, but on just enough accordions to help confuse the matter, because then you can use it for dims.  As Glenn says, try it.  The accordion will tell the tale.

(* right anyway up to a point, but note that the standard Cdim voicing doesnt use Gb after all, just A/C/Eb - see the Stradella chart, if your eyesight is good enough to make it out.)

 

[joe]

There are two ways that 7th chords are voiced on accordions. The standard Stradella bass has 1,3,b7 for each seventh chord (so the C7 button would play C,E,Bb). This is not really helpful for playing diminished chords, though depending on the chord's function in the progression you can sometimes substitute a dominant chord of a different root. There is also a system (I think it's called French or Continental or something) that has the 7th chords voiced 3,5,b7 (so C7 button plays E,G,Bb). These accordions tend to have a third counterbass row at the top, so this voicing can be used to play diminished chords (which then goes with the counterbass row, e.g. Edim is E-G-Bb).

You can play half-diminished 7th chords (min7b5) by using the minor button of the b3 key (e.g. Cmin7b5 = C bass + Eb minor chord), but these generally don't substitute well for diminished chords.

 

[Sarah]

What do you think about bass button combination (without chord buttons).


For example C diminished played as:

Bass C - first row - 3rd finger
+
Bass Eb - first row - 5th finger
+
Bass F# - second row - 2nd finger


or


Bass C - first row - 3rd finger
+
Bass Eb - first row - 5th finger
+
Bass F#- second row - 2nd finger
+
Bas A - second row - 4th finger

 

[Glenn]

Don't such chord voicings not sound too bass heavy and hence turgid?

 

[pcechan]

C dim chord = C Eb Gb
Em Chord = Eb Gb Bb
C root + Em Chord = C Eb Gb Bb
I Tried this out.
It Sounds good on piano.
This is actually the chord Cm7b5.
So it means to play a Cdim on a 60 bass accordion, you can play the chord Cm7b5 instead. And this can be achieved by playing C root & Em together.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

The best way, in my opinion, to do it on 5 row accordions is as follows:
Ill take C as the base case.

Cdim = C bass + F7 chord
Thus simply play the 7th chord one column below.

In other words, this is exactly the same as Dunlustin says above.
I use it all the time as my accordions do not have the dim row and have the extra bass row instead.
Its also pretty easy to do and does not require a great effort to learn.

OK, so Ill third(?) the motion. My teacher actually wrote it this way for another student who wanted to play, Let Me Call You Sweetheart, but hadnt yet learned about diminished chords. When he showed it to me and I tried it, the voicing was a little strange, but it worked. Its also possible to depress and hold down C dim on a 120-bass accordion and at the same time, press and release F7. You will feel less than normal resistance in the F7 button, which indicates that some or all of the bass pallets are already open because the C dim is held down.

Alan

 

[donn]

I use it all the time as my accordions do not have the dim row and have the extra bass row instead.

Its fun to come back to these discussions every five years, and see whats new.  When we left it last time, I think it was clear that Cbass + F7chord works for accordions like Glenns - which many of us have, but which account for a tiny fraction of the worlds accordions.  But completely unknown how often it would work with non-French-style 5 row accordions.  Have we picked up a 5 row bass anywhere, in the hands of someone who can tell whats on that 5th row?

 

[maugein96]

Donn,

I have four accordions which were all built for the French market. Three of them have 6 bass rows, and one has 5.

When placing an order for a new accordion in France you have various options for the treble and bass sides.

Bass configuration is available as 4x2, 3x3, 3x3 Belgian, and 3x2 if 5 row. Three of my accordions are 4x2 and the other one is 3x2 with no dim7 row.

Even on the accordions which have the dim7 row it is possible to play C dim7 by playing C bass + F7 chord. The same thing can be achieved with the 3x2, and there is no noticeable difference (to me) in any of them.

I've never owned a 3x3 accordion, but if Glenn says you can get a dim7 chord by playing C bass +F7 chord on those, then the effect is much the same on a 4x2. I don't know what sort of ear you'd need to tell the difference between a 7 chord on a 3x3 compared to a 4x2, but I get the feeling that it's all a bit academic.

The French accordion retailers insinuate that the 4x2 arrangement is better for jazz. None of the French tutor books I've seen gives any instruction on how to use the inner bass row on a 3x3, so I don't know how to utilise that facility at all.

It seems that the 3x3 arrangement is pretty much localised to France, Belgium, Portugal, and The Netherlands, and if their 7th chords are different everybody else's then I have absolutely no idea why that is so. My teacher has a CBA with 3x3 bass, and next time I go for a lesson I'll ask him about it.

Wish I'd never given up playing the trumpet as it seems that chords make things just too complicated.

 

[donn]

Well, two reactions to that. First, I'm trying to say: the French market or the Belgians is exactly what I'm NOT talking about. Great people, and my kind of accordions, too, but just for the sake of knowledge, I'm thinking we ought to learn what's in ordinary accordions. The kind the Chinese copy, if you like.

It's an issue because our ordinary accordion, in its 6 row 2/4 Stradella variation, reportedly puts the root in every chord, including the dominant 7. If the 5 row is like that, too, then when we use that F7 hoping to fill out a Cdim, there's an F in there - making it an F7 with a very strong fifth. So you can play that combination, but it's no diminished chord.

I suppose the test would be, play your F7 (on the 5 row bass), against a (treble) F#, which will go OK with a Cdim but not with any chord containing an F.

 

[losthobos]

A French player showed me this trick...
If playing a 3x3 system then Yes a C bass with and F7 (A,C,Eb) works to create Cdim..
However he showed me to play C bass and use the thumb to play a D7 (F#,A,C) and this again can sound as Cdim but is easier fingering than dropping to the F7..
For a full dim sound play the F7 and D7 together...
John , the third inner row of bass notes really comes into its own on the turnarounds on them old jazz tunes...made my interpretations smoother for sure...wouldn't want to be without it now...

 

[maugein96]

Well, two reactions to that. First, Im trying to say: the French market or the Belgians is exactly what Im NOT talking about. Great people, and my kind of accordions, too, but just for the sake of knowledge, Im thinking we ought to learn whats in ordinary accordions. The kind the Chinese copy, if you like.

Its an issue because our ordinary accordion, in its 6 row 2/4 Stradella variation, reportedly puts the root in every chord, including the dominant 7. If the 5 row is like that, too, then when we use that F7 hoping to fill out a Cdim, theres an F in there - making it an F7 with a very strong fifth. So you can play that combination, but its no diminished chord.

I suppose the test would be, play your F7 (on the 5 row bass), against a (treble) F#, which will go OK with a Cdim but not with any chord containing an F.

Donn,

Realise you were looking for a non-French example, and should have said my 3x2 is a Chinese made Hohner, but it has the treble coupler for the MM reeds on the back etc. Ill try the test you mention in the last part of your post. It may be that my ear cannot detect any mismatch. Im maybe bass deaf.

At a guess three out of four of my boxes will have French 7th chords, but Im not really sure. Its just occurred to me that my Marinucci may have an Italian 7th chord and Ill see if I can tell the difference.


EDIT:- Donn, on both my Maugein and Cavagnolo 4x2 accordions F# in the treble sounds out of place when played along with the F7 bass chord.

On the Chinese Hohner 3x2 F# in the treble blends in perfectly so there is obviously a difference. Whether its a true diminished chord Ill probably never know, but suffice to say you get away with it. Ill need to move a lot of stuff to get at the Marinucci but will try it later.

OK. Finally got the 4x2 Marinucci out and the 7th chords on it are different from the Cava and Maugein. It has the same (or similar) 7th chords as the Chinese Hohner, and F7 bass chord with F# treble sounds OK. The 7th chord on both French boxes sound as though they have at least one note higher, and playing an F# treble button doesnt gel with whatever chord they use for F7. Im now worried that my findings fly in the face of what has already been said in much of the previous arguments. Basically, Im saying that to my ear the two boxes with Italian 7th chord arrangements seem to have a deeper bass sound and an F# treble seems to fit in. With the two French boxes the 7th chord appears to comprise higher notes and an F# treble sounds out of place in conjunction with them.

Unfortunately Ive never read up on bass chords at all, and have been cheating on the bass side for a very long time now. With guitar I just learn the shapes for the fancy chords from tabs, without working out the whys and wherefores. I mainly played surf, blues, and rock, where subtlety between chords was relatively unknown territory, aside from 6th and 9ths. I know how to play them, but dont ask me what notes are in them, as thats far too boring!

Ive had a look on the French internet to try and ascertain what their take on 7th chords is, and whether they have a different combination for 4x2 over 3x3. My French isnt up to it, and my Italian is best described as virtually non-existent. Ill try looking on the Italian web to see whether they make francese accordions with different 7th chords (since tried that and also failed miserably).

Next thing is to try and mess about with right hand 7th chords and see if I can match them to the 7th bass chords on both instrument types! Ill let you know the outcome of that.

 

[maugein96]

A French player showed me this trick...
If playing a 3x3 system then Yes a C bass with and F7 (A,C,Eb) works to create Cdim..
However he showed me to play C bass and use the thumb to play a D7 (F#,A,C) and this again can sound as Cdim but is easier fingering than dropping to the F7..
For a full dim sound play the F7 and D7 together...
John , the third inner row of bass notes really comes into its own on the turnarounds on them old jazz tunes...made my interpretations smoother for sure...wouldnt want to be without it now...

Terry,

Ive seen a few French players use their thumbs on the bass side, and the technique is also used in Norway on 4x2 accordions with bass converters, where the outside two rows of basses are stepped, and the inner four rows are on a flat keyboard.

All very virtuoso like so I havent a clue what actually goes on. Ive always wanted to be able to understand music theory but just dont have the patience or the inclination to learn it. If the bass Im playing sounds OK then it will do, even if it isnt politically correct.

I still just play at home and if I was totally honest accordion playing to a decent standard is probably outside of my competence level. Its nice to pretend though!

 

[losthobos]

I still just play at home and if I was totally honest accordion playing to a decent standard is probably outside of my competence level. Its nice to pretend though!

bout right for me too....though I play out Im happiest playing at home trying to decipher this box of tricks <EMOJI seq=1f609>?</EMOJI>

 

[maugein96]

I still just play at home and if I was totally honest accordion playing to a decent standard is probably outside of my competence level. Its nice to pretend though!

bout right for me too....though I play out Im happiest playing at home trying to decipher this box of tricks <EMOJI seq=1f609>?</EMOJI>

I basically started out too late thinking my guitar ability would carry me through, but the very thing the accordion claims to make easy for the player (the bass) is what ultimately snookered me.

I suppose just because somebody is a good plumber, it doesnt automatically mean they are going to be a wizard at carpentry. That appears to have been the logic I applied when I switched to accordion from guitar.

 

[Morne]

I use it all the time as my accordions do not have the dim row <COLOR color=#FF0000>and have the extra bass row instead.

Its fun to come back to these discussions every five years, and see whats new. When we left it last time, I think it was clear that Cbass + F7chord works for accordions like Glenns - which many of us have, but which account for a tiny fraction of the worlds accordions. But completely unknown how often it would work with non-French-style 5 row accordions. Have we picked up a 5 row bass anywhere, in the hands of someone who can tell whats on that 5th row?

All my non-French style 5 rows have those same root-less 7 chords. These include:
- late 1930s Hohner Tango (80 bass)
- 1959 Hohner Morino VI M (5 row Stradella + free bass)
- (possibly 1960s? and Italian) Mengozzi (80 bass)

My 6 row Morino IV M has the typical fifth-less 7 chord.

As far as Hohner is concerned, when they made 5 rows they made them specifically so that those 7 chords would be dual purpose. Here is a diagram from a 1937 catalogue:


I dont have an explicit reference as to whether the 100 bass Russian system just dropped off the dim row, or if they went with the dual purpose 7 too.

 

[maugein96]

Discovered that my two non French boxes have a rootless 7th as well, and both my Cavagnolo and Maugein definitely have an F in the 7th chord.

Ive tried to ascertain which note the French boxes miss out of the 7th chord to be replaced with the F, but my ear cant discern that. I believe somebody had it all worked out in a previous post in any case.

Before yesterday I just played the 7th chords on them all without worrying whether they were boiled or fried. In musette scores if I see a chord symbol I dont know then I replace it with a suitable fake. The music usually moves at such a pace that trying to play anything fancy is often just a recipe for disaster, at my level of competence.

My teacher was trying to get me into the concept of playing a Bm flat 5th, and eventually gave up and said Just play a D minor.

I said Is D the same as Re? as I had got all mixed up. Eventually I broke the ice and said Would it be OK just to play the King of Diamonds, as Ive now forgotten what you told me? The score says Bm (actually Si min), and my philosophy is if the chord doesnt exist on the box in such a straightforward genre as French musette, then whilst it may be clever to devise a way of playing it, is it really absolutely necessary, for that split second it is played?

Ive listened to players from all over the world just accepting the limitations of the Stradella bass, without getting involved in a chess match of button combinations.

The antics of the Danish comedian/pianist Victor Borge spring to mind.