One question... do arrangers play out to their own tempo and you play along (not so useful for me) or can they follow input from a human and play along (super useful, would need to buy one!) ?
What is the best keyboard arranger……
- Thread starter Tom
- Start date
Cannot speak for more modern options, but the Solton/Ketron MS40 series I have plays at its fixed tempo.
BUT: it has Tempo+ and Tempo- buttons with which you can dial the tempo up/down easily. And the patterns are comparatively short and take their harmonies from your chord button, so you can easily miss a bar (or even half a bar) and be back in a playable place. And when you have "Key Stop" enabled, a short tap on a chord button will stop the music and you restart at the start of the pattern when using chord buttons for longer.
Of course you can also stop/start with a dedicated arranger button (and its function can be assigned to a foot pedal if you have one: those are available with 1 or 6 or 13 switches, with the 1 switch typically getting used as sustain pedal, but that's not a given).
So it doesn't follow you, but it's quite easy to adapt it or oneself to that. Sort of like a metronome, just a lot more fun. More modern versions might have better abilities here, but for practising a steady beat which you can dial up or down as needed this behavior is not the worst thing.
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For arrangers, you follow it, just like you would follow the drummer in a band. Of course you can choose the tempo.
I was looking and the absolute king of arrangers is (for the second iteration now), from Ketron. This one is called the EVENT, and it'a few pennies over $500.
For arrangers, you follow it, just like you would follow the drummer in a band. Of course you can choose the tempo.
I was looking and the absolute king of arrangers is (for the second iteration now), from Ketron. This one is called the EVENT, and it'a few pennies over $500.
Ah, here you put your finger on the issue... we have a drummer in the band and she won't want to play along to a computer.
I'll write more in a couple of days once we've finished experimenting.
For arrangers, you follow it, just like you would follow the drummer in a band. Of course you can choose the tempo.
I was looking and the absolute king of arrangers is (for the second iteration now), from Ketron. This one is called the EVENT, and it'a few pennies over $500.
Huh. It may have better out of the box styles, but all that does not look significantly different from what an MS50 with a stack of diskettes or an MS100 with the same info stored on hard disk would offer. There will be nuances in sound quality (I think the sampling of the MS series may have been done with 32kHz if I remember correctly which would affect the airiness of cymbals, for example), but the overall deal seems to make for a lot of money for not all that immense of a difference.
This is about the highest quality most realistic sound on the market today, (heard it live over a good pair of speakers, it. Really is top notch sounds), the price also matches it too… lol
Hi Rosie, the ones we’re looking at run at a fixed speed, but follow your chords. In my research I came across one arranger that sets time based on your first couple notes. I have not tested it. I suspect that over time the arrangers will include a feature to follow your timing as well as your chords but we’re not there yet, unless someone knows more than me in this respect.
For arrangers, you follow it, just like you would follow the drummer in a band. Of course you can choose the tempo.
I was looking and the absolute king of arrangers is (for the second iteration now), from Ketron. This one is called the EVENT, and it'a few pennies over $500.
Thanks Jerry! Ketron has the pedigree, so this one is definitely worth looking into.
Sounds like a nightmare. It is a very thin line a drummer will have to thread following his subordinates' tempo, and there is a lot of context involved in casting the decisions. When performing, the audience will appreciate a steady rhythm section, when practising, the player will appreciate a steady rhythm section. When accidentally starting a piece too fast, maintaining that speed is not something you'd appreciate. If you are feeling spiffy one day, dialing up the speed one or two notches manually will be easy enough.
Ventura
Been here for ages!
no matter how quick microprocessors could respond to input,
you would still need at least 2 measures being tracked for any device to
notice a measurable tempo change that could be applied to the
playback tempo, and it would likely need to be focused on one channel
(the bass) and you would need to avoid flurries of notes where you want
tempo change detected accurately
as far as drummers accepting the timing of a track and playing along'with it,
my drummer Aldo had no problem doing this live with MIDI files where i muted
the channel 10
and further, if you can find the WHO at Shepperton Studios video of
Baba o Reilly you will see that Keith Moon has no problem following
the pulse of the complex background played back on the AMPEX
through his headphones
you would still need at least 2 measures being tracked for any device to
notice a measurable tempo change that could be applied to the
playback tempo, and it would likely need to be focused on one channel
(the bass) and you would need to avoid flurries of notes where you want
tempo change detected accurately
as far as drummers accepting the timing of a track and playing along'with it,
my drummer Aldo had no problem doing this live with MIDI files where i muted
the channel 10
and further, if you can find the WHO at Shepperton Studios video of
Baba o Reilly you will see that Keith Moon has no problem following
the pulse of the complex background played back on the AMPEX
through his headphones
Oh, our drummer can do it. When we play live we often play with the tempo, slow up a tad before a chorus, or before a turnaround, take a pause etc. If we play live that just happens naturally. If I'm making a backing track with MIDI I have to explicitly set the pauses and tempo changes. That said, I think Logic Pro's "flex tempo" can match its internal tempo to a recorded drum beat, then I can import a MIDI file to it. So at least we can just record a tune in rehearsal and have a backing track automatically produced with the tempo variations we played.
But as you say doing this live is a whole different thing! On the plus side, for our booked gigs this summer we have a third musician for every one of them, so our robo-bandmember option won't be needed this year
True! Difficult, but I don’t believe impossible. I believe that x years ago the idea of an arranger identifying and changing chords in (perceived) real time would have seemed equally impossible.
This is the real question! In fact I can’t find ANY videos of a keyboard arranger being demoed driven by a midi accordion or other midi instrument. Maybe there is NO USE CASE. Maybe people who play accordions don’t care about having a keyboard on their arranger or people who play keyboard arrangers don’t care about playing a midi instrument. (Although I believe we have seen this done by “keymn”.).
Challenge: Show me such a demo video and I will GIVE you a 41/120 Italian cassotto accordion from the glory days in perfect playable condition with leather straps and case. (No shipping however.) Includes introductory lesson. $1000 value. Valid (including pickup) until 2/14/2024. Happy
Day!
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Ventura
Been here for ages!
i can imagine the why
i have songs that i have done for decades, like Danny Boy,
like the kerry dance, where my tempo changes constantly
now that arthritis has forced limitations on my left hand, i rely
on my MIDI tracks more and more, but those off tempo variable
arrangements were always unplugged in the past
now i am beginning to convert some of my favorite old
arrangements to MIDI, but it is only possible for me because i
have the tempo changes mapped into my DNA from decades of playing
these songs, and patterns of performance
not all arrangements will be possible, and God help whoever
gets my hard drive of arrangements after my death trying to
keep up with the changes
have always used tricks awhere the tempo is in my head, like for
Tommy Dorsey's "i'm getting sentimental over you" there is an
almost inaudible "click" and i hit the trombone intro to the song,
but i have to play the first 6 beats acapella in perfect time or the
MIDI orchestra would come in wrong
it is impressive when it works ! and fun to bedazzle an audience
i have songs that i have done for decades, like Danny Boy,
like the kerry dance, where my tempo changes constantly
now that arthritis has forced limitations on my left hand, i rely
on my MIDI tracks more and more, but those off tempo variable
arrangements were always unplugged in the past
now i am beginning to convert some of my favorite old
arrangements to MIDI, but it is only possible for me because i
have the tempo changes mapped into my DNA from decades of playing
these songs, and patterns of performance
not all arrangements will be possible, and God help whoever
gets my hard drive of arrangements after my death trying to
keep up with the changes
have always used tricks awhere the tempo is in my head, like for
Tommy Dorsey's "i'm getting sentimental over you" there is an
almost inaudible "click" and i hit the trombone intro to the song,
but i have to play the first 6 beats acapella in perfect time or the
MIDI orchestra would come in wrong
it is impressive when it works ! and fun to bedazzle an audience
Tom, you might to rethink that offer.This is the real question! In fact I can’t find ANY videos of a keyboard arranger being demoed driven by a midi accordion or other midi instrument. Maybe there is NO USE CASE. Maybe people who play accordions don’t care about having a keyboard on their arranger or people who play keyboard arrangers don’t care about playing a midi instrument. (Although I believe we have seen this done by “keymn”.).
Challenge: Show me such a demo video and I will GIVE you a 41/120 Italian cassotto accordion from the glory days in perfect playable condition with leather straps and case. (No shipping however.) Includes introductory lesson. $1000 value. Valid (including pickup) until 2/14/2024. Happy
I have right now an MS80 arranger at home that has a (CBA) keyboard of its own. I also have a Roland FR-1 and an Excelsior with basic MIDI circuitry. I have already showcased the latter with an MS40 arranger, and the MS40 and MS80 are virtually identical in use.
It's easy enough to whip up a demo like that for me (and likely others on this list).
But why bother?
Plenty to be found if you look. Ok, this example is pretty bad but if illustrates rather well that the accompaniment follows the played chords (which are awful).
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