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Diminished chord substitute
- Thread starter Sarah
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How about this:
F7 chord = A C Eb without its root
A Cdim chord: A C Eb
so Play C bass and F7chord - if I haven't made a mistake that would be movable:
as Root and its IV7chord
More than happy to be put right.
F7 chord = A C Eb without its root
A Cdim chord: A C Eb
so Play C bass and F7chord - if I haven't made a mistake that would be movable:
as Root and its IV7chord
More than happy to be put right.
Dun L, I think Cdim is actually C Eb Gb but you should be able to combine those buttons .....oh, though not on a 60 apparently ! See the widget @
http://accordionbasstool.googlecode.com/hg/web/index.html
This confirms that you can IF you have the buttons .......so you need a 80 bass 5 row for Cdim minimum for the 3 as above.....I suppose on a 60 you could play C bass and an F# counter bass for a two note diminished chord.
http://accordionbasstool.googlecode.com/hg/web/index.html
This confirms that you can IF you have the buttons .......so you need a 80 bass 5 row for Cdim minimum for the 3 as above.....I suppose on a 60 you could play C bass and an F# counter bass for a two note diminished chord.
The best way, in my opinion, to do it on 5 row accordions is as follows:
I'll take C as the base case.
Cdim = C bass + F7 chord
Thus simply play the 7th chord one column below.
In other words, this is exactly the same as Dunlustin says above.
I use it all the time as my accordions do not have the dim row and have the extra bass row instead.
It's also pretty easy to do and does not require a great effort to learn.
I'll take C as the base case.
Cdim = C bass + F7 chord
Thus simply play the 7th chord one column below.
In other words, this is exactly the same as Dunlustin says above.
I use it all the time as my accordions do not have the dim row and have the extra bass row instead.
It's also pretty easy to do and does not require a great effort to learn.
Jarvo
Yes but ....
the last note of the group of 4 is an A - as my suggestion.
I understood that a dim chord is just pile minor thirds, giving the other possibilities as
D F G# B and
E G Bb Db - which would work.
Yes but ....
the last note of the group of 4 is an A - as my suggestion.
I understood that a dim chord is just pile minor thirds, giving the other possibilities as
D F G# B and
E G Bb Db - which would work.
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I have a Cavagnolo with 80 bass buttons (5 X 16), no dim chords. To substitute for a dim chord, I just play a different chord. What chord to use depends on the melody note.
For example, Cdim is C Eb Gb. If the melody note is C or Eb, I use Cm (C Eb G). If the melody note is Gb, I use D7 (D Gb C).
For example, Cdim is C Eb Gb. If the melody note is C or Eb, I use Cm (C Eb G). If the melody note is Gb, I use D7 (D Gb C).
Jar:By the way I like your link - even if it does make my brain ache
donn
Prolific poster
Glenn said:
Yes, same here, but it works because we have a different 7th voicing. Our F7 is A/C/Eb, but the common 2/6 Stradella will be F/A/Eb, which is not as suited for this use. So for the lucky few who have 3/3 Stradella, just use the adjacent 7th, but the rest should not be surprised if that doesnt turn out to sound very good.
F/A/C/Eb - is that not a half diminished chord.
I can't say I'm very fond of the dim effect so I really like pp's approach of choosing a substitute depending on the context.
I can't say I'm very fond of the dim effect so I really like pp's approach of choosing a substitute depending on the context.
donn
Prolific poster
My guess would be not. What sounds so sensible to you and me, is sort of fighting ingrained tradition in the rest of the accordion scene, and they'll back it up with some wild story about how useful that voicing is if you want to use it to play some crazy major 7 or something.
Maybe someone with a common brand diminished-less piano accordion, and a reliable ear, can pick the 7th apart and tell us what's in there?
Maybe someone with a common brand diminished-less piano accordion, and a reliable ear, can pick the 7th apart and tell us what's in there?
donn said:
Those of us playing boxes of a certain age have proper four note sevenths by golly, (as confirmed by the wee pins on the stradella mech.)
donn
Prolific poster
Cool! Though of course, likewise less useful as a diminished row.
donn
Prolific poster
Sarah said:
Does your accordion look like the one in the drawing that appears on that score? Given the use of French language and the CBA accordion, Id give it better than even odds hes got the same 3/3 setup Glenn and I were talking about. If you have that, then its definitely C + F7.
How does it sound? Does it come out the same as if you play Cdim on the right hand, or do you hear an F in there?
Sarah
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Nope... I play piano accordion 
The score is for CBA & piano accordion.
(C) - fingering for CBA (numbers at the top)
(P) - fingering for piano accordion (numbers at the bottom)
For bass side fingers are numerated as 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 (0 - thumb)
The score is for CBA & piano accordion.
(C) - fingering for CBA (numbers at the top)
(P) - fingering for piano accordion (numbers at the bottom)
For bass side fingers are numerated as 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 (0 - thumb)
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Sarah said:
IMHO, thats very interesting for 2 reasons:
1. I would not play a C chord of any flavor there in the first place. F would be my first choice, but Am or Dm are OK too.
2. F7 chord: F A C Eb. Most accordions play only three notes: F A Eb. Adding C makes the chord complete, but its still F7, and should sound F7.
dunlustin said:
Ah yes ...I had not travelled all the way up to the fourth ,the A........interesting ,the analyser uses the first three and and ignores the A ....hmmm perhaps a shortfall in its calculating ...or perhaps it only uses three notes in its chords.....either way we seem to be all right.
P
PaulS
Guest
jarvo said:
That widget is pretty damned clever, I must say! Thanks for sharing.
The only ones in danger of being wrong are possibly those who think the others are.
My reading of Sarah's extract is Use Cdim if you have one (top line) if not then C and F7 does it.
Perhaps folks liked dim chords more at the time of the arrangement.
These days wouldn't many people just go for a simple F?
There are the suggestions others made too and couldn't you pop a C6 in there?
What I want to know is where does Sarah get all this interesting stuff from??
30+ posts on Dim chords - - Hats off!
My reading of Sarah's extract is Use Cdim if you have one (top line) if not then C and F7 does it.
Perhaps folks liked dim chords more at the time of the arrangement.
These days wouldn't many people just go for a simple F?
There are the suggestions others made too and couldn't you pop a C6 in there?
What I want to know is where does Sarah get all this interesting stuff from??
30+ posts on Dim chords - - Hats off!
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