Korg FISA SUPREMA

[saundersbp]

Like Roland, Korg is proud to explain how they use "sound modeling", not "sampling" to generate accordion sounds. This is how digital pianos produced piano sound 25 to 30 years ago (if not more...). Nowadays the pianos sample the sound of high-end acoustic pianos, and not surprising they sound just like the pianos that were sampled.

Yes I find the same, the contemporary electronic accordion emulation is 30 years behind other instruments. Perhaps its because the accordion is a bit like the violin: the basic sound of the instrument isn't a thing of great beauty - that beauty comes from the shaping that the bow/bellows does to the sound. And that is a bugger to emulate.

Roland on the other hand... must try harder!

Well I think the videos you posted show the best fit to the electric accordion is in that luscious sweet spot between USA razzamataz, Italian novelty and Russian kitsch - a genre that has its camp admirers but is a stomach churner for others.

 

[John M]

I am not sure it identifies as an accordion.

Yes it does -- The accordion is 1/3 -- orchestral sounds are 1/3 and the organ is 1/3.

 

[kep]

Yes I find the same, the contemporary electronic accordion emulation is 30 years behind other instruments. Perhaps its because the accordion is a bit like the violin: the basic sound of the instrument isn't a thing of great beauty - that beauty comes from the shaping that the bow/bellows does to the sound. And that is a bugger to emulate.

Well I think the videos you posted show the best fit to the electric accordion is in that luscious sweet spot between USA razzamataz, Italian novelty and Russian kitsch - a genre that has its camp admirers but is a stomach churner for others.

The list lacks the English New Wave

 

[Alan Sharkis]

I originally posted this in thread "Pietro Adragna on the new Korg." From the posts I've been seeing lately, it needs to be posted here, with additions in italics as well:

Lets keep one thing in mind. Korg and Dexibel developed, produced, and brought a digital accordion to market just when we all felt that the concept of a digital accordion was fading because Roland didn’t seem interested in further development.

It wasn’t promised, as another digital instrument was, delayed while pre-orders grew, and then so few were produced that they sold out in short order, and, two-plus years later, there is no sign of further production, but lots of excuses.

In fact, the Korg Fisa Suprema’s development was kept quiet for four years and then the instrument was released with promotional videos, a dealer network, etc, all ready to go.

The Fisa Suprema may or may not compare favorably with the Roland FR-8x on each and every detail as some see it. It may or may not be the digital accordion that looks, sounds and plays closer to an acoustic accordion than all the other digital accordions ever produced again, as some see it.

But it is a new digital accordion, from a major electronic musical instrument maker, and it will, at least, keep the concept of a digital accordion alive for the foreseeable future.

 

[dak]

But it is a new digital accordion, from a major electronic musical instrument maker, and it will, at least, keep the concept of a digital accordion alive for the foreseeable future.

What is the concept of a digital accordion? Seriously. Reedless accordions have been around for long, so have MIDIfied acoustic accordions, previously accordion organs and other analog devices with and without reeds. There are digital electroniums, there are loads of expanders and arrangers, partly with accordion buttons left and right in spite of being flat. Roland tried a large focus on accordion sounds and controls, to a degree where people obsessed back and forth how realistic the instrument was for the player as an accordion surrogate.

To me it appears that Korg has approached this with less of a view towards how authentic the accordion feels as an accordion rather than how good the instrument sounds. It moves in a different direction as the Bugari Evo (and Harissa?) did, and they were/are locked into Roland.

Roland opened a new view towards what people may feel as important and managed to corner the market on it.

There is new excitement about Korg right now but I don't know whether Korg will price itself out of the market like the Cavagnolo Numerique did (which nobody could afford and so nobody really had an opinion about it).

Roland did something right, to the degree that people stopped looking at otherways in which an accordion-shaped controller could be used.

I mean, nobody complains that an accordina doesn't sound like a real accordion, do they? When do we get a digital accordion with a mouthpiece (like a Highland Pipe) which allows you to breath-control the orchestral wind instruments independently of the bass side? Instant visual gratification for non-accordion sounds. Also it allows you to use bagpipe patches by squeezing the bellows. Or it just changes registers/sound whenever you put pressure in/on that mouthpiece.

When do we get digital accordions that don't just output audio but video, with an AI rendition of the player playing whatever instrument the people hear?

What I like about the Korg hype is that provides a bit of a refocus about using an accordion-shaped controller for more than just accordion sounds with instrumentals that aren't, well, pulled from decades-old moth sacks.

 

[kep]

When do we get a digital accordion with a mouthpiece (like a Highland Pipe) which allows you to breath-control the orchestral wind instruments independently of the bass side?

 

[dak]

Well, it's acoustic and has a separate keyboard. Well-integrated, I'll admit. I actually have rarely seen a Weltmeister Logicordeon (the underlying accordion) in action. Part of the reason is that they have just this single 3-reed template so there is no upgrade path with the same kind of keyboard system to be had. So this is kind of the only way to get a 4-reed instrument.

 

[Alan Sharkis]

What is the concept of a digital accordion? Seriously. Reedless accordions have been around for long, so have MIDIfied acoustic accordions, previously accordion organs and other analog devices with and without reeds. There are digital electroniums, there are loads of expanders and arrangers, partly with accordion buttons left and right in spite of being flat. Roland tried a large focus on accordion sounds and controls, to a degree where people obsessed back and forth how realistic the instrument was for the player as an accordion surrogate.

To me it appears that Korg has approached this with less of a view towards how authentic the accordion feels as an accordion rather than how good the instrument sounds. It moves in a different direction as the Bugari Evo (and Harissa?) did, and they were/are locked into Roland.

Roland opened a new view towards what people may feel as important and managed to corner the market on it.

There is new excitement about Korg right now but I don't know whether Korg will price itself out of the market like the Cavagnolo Numerique did (which nobody could afford and so nobody really had an opinion about it).

Roland did something right, to the degree that people stopped looking at otherways in which an accordion-shaped controller could be used.

I mean, nobody complains that an accordina doesn't sound like a real accordion, do they? When do we get a digital accordion with a mouthpiece (like a Highland Pipe) which allows you to breath-control the orchestral wind instruments independently of the bass side? Instant visual gratification for non-accordion sounds. Also it allows you to use bagpipe patches by squeezing the bellows. Or it just changes registers/sound whenever you put pressure in/on that mouthpiece.

When do we get digital accordions that don't just output audio but video, with an AI rendition of the player playing whatever instrument the people hear?

What I like about the Korg hype is that provides a bit of a refocus about using an accordion-shaped controller for more than just accordion sounds with instrumentals that aren't, well, pulled from decades-old moth sacks.

Dak, do you want everything?

I like the points you made, but I suspect we’ll have to be very patient before we see most of those inventions.

Yes, Cavagnolo priced themselves out of the market, but people still buy their products. IMHO the champion of ridiculous pricing is the Concerto, which is probably not well known in Germany.

There are serious drawbacks to using digital accordions for non-accordion sounds in front of an audience. Somehow, using a flat keyboard for orchestral sounds is accepted by an audience, but an accordion that sounds like anything other than an accordion raises many eyebrows.

But accordionists, and I suspect other instrumentalists are often picky when confronted with a new instrument, even before they try it. They do comparisons in their mind without having the two instruments they are comparing in their hands. And some are so loyal to the instrument they already own that they reject the newcomer as inferior — sight unseen.

That’s why I posted what I did. My only wish is that some dealers will order a Korg as a demonstration model so that the interested, or even the curious among us can try it out instead of making judgements based on videos and/or reading the spec list, or the tone list, or the entire manual. So far, at least in the. USA, many dealers will take orders or pre-orders, but will not stock the Korg.

 

[Thomas N]

I'm interested in the Korg because it is modern. The Roland FR-8X is long in the tooth and having a new mainstream digital accordion is great for all of us and the industry.

You're correct about reedless (humorously auto-corrected to needless upon my first attempt) accordions. They've been around for a long time. My Petosa Millennium digital accordion had to be back pre-2000. So 25-30 years ago. I loved that thing. Next up was the FR-8x in 2015. It's been 10 years so I'm very interested to see what newer technology this instrument has.

I say newer in italics because from reading the manual and watching videos the tech in this accordion is light-years behind the premium keyboard workstations of today. Aftertouch, great. Polyphonic aftertouch? Nope. My Yamaha Montage M8x has three separate sound synthesis engines. There's an analog modeling module, an FM synthesis module, and an Advanced Wave Memory module. Each of these is specialized to allow creation of unlimited sounds. Available effects dwarf the Fisa including a new Shimmer Reverb I have spent hours experimenting with.

So the Korg's available sounds and effects are extremely limited to me which is why I tend to concentrate on the actual accordion sounds and expression of the bellows - something my M8x does not do. It's great that it can play Raiders of the Lost Ark but I can achieve that with the M8x with just a couple button presses. So even experimenting with that (since I would never perform that in public) is not of interest.

I eagerly await some of the early adopter videos and I know there will be some. What I've heard I like a lot.

Price will matter. Thomann has it listed for $7445 US I believe right now. That's MAP. Who knows what they'll go for on the street. That's over $8000 US with taxes - a steep price for a digital accordion.

I'm glad Korg is releasing this product and hope it is a resounding success.

 

[Thomas N]

I should add - a digital accordion doesn't need all of those high-end workstation elements. Polyphonic aftertouch wouldn't be worthwhile. It doesn't need hundreds of terabytes of sounds. It doesn't need 100 routable effects - and the cost associated with adding those features.

The form factor is much smaller than a workstation as well. And hey, you're portable so weight better not approach the 58 pounds of my M8x.

Therefore the accordion sounds and bellow expression should be the foremost thought in development of any reedless accordion.

I also agree with the poster above that my experience is somewhat cringe when listening to massive non-accordion sounds coming from a digital accordion. I'm probably in the minority but it just doesn't sit right. I used to play Spanish Eyes and improvise over it with a sax sound on my FR-8X. I stopped doing that.

Kind of like watching a master guitarist sitting down with a midi-guitar and playing orchestral arrangements or sounding like a piano. Ugh.

 

[KeysFla]

As a Keyboard player, always had a Korg arranger at my side. I hear much of the orchestration I already have. Kind of wish there would be some more demonstrations playing Ballroom music…as that is where I think most accordions players are doing when gigging out…

 

[KeysFla]

Well I've got 60 Scenes Done. Will have 100 Done before any KORG's even reach the shores of the US. And you guys can ask for some specific ones, as I've done most of the types I'd love to have, and will keep posting videos for some of them.

Does this accordion have scenes factory programmed, then maybe a user area?

 

[kep]

I should add - a digital accordion doesn't need all of those high-end workstation elements.

That's one opinion. Totally understandable, but here is the problem with it. If digital accordion only copies the acoustic accordion sound and features, why bother?

Kind of like watching a master guitarist sitting down with a midi-guitar and playing orchestral arrangements or sounding like a piano. Ugh.

Let's use this example. The electric guitar was not very popular when it imitated the acoustic guitar's sound, only louder. But when it started sounding like something else, its popularity exploded and it became a new instrument.
Same thing with electric organ. It was not terribly good copy of the pipe organ until musicians found how to create a different, unique sound on it.
I think the same process is undergoing with the digital accordion. If all you need is perfect copy of an acoustic accordion sound, better get to the source. Digital should be and already becomes a different instrument.

 

[dak]

There are serious drawbacks to using digital accordions for non-accordion sounds in front of an audience. Somehow, using a flat keyboard for orchestral sounds is accepted by an audience, but an accordion that sounds like anything other than an accordion raises many eyebrows.

Said it before: it's one reason I like the buttons-and-lights covered cheesy grille on the Korg: it changes expectations. The Bugari Evo goes in the other direction: it looks like a classy accordion and that gives expectations for its sound.

Maybe you don't need to cut away the bellows and put the keyboards flat to make the audience receptive. I mean, we know that in the thirties, accordions exchanged the buttons for piano keys (partly by masquerading the buttons as piano keys) to give the impression that the player was capable of an erudite repertoire. Maybe all the instrument needs is a wacko exterior to be allowed to sound like anything.

 

[Mockie]

Dog's dinner......

 

[Walker]

Well I think the videos you posted show the best fit to the electric accordion is in that luscious sweet spot between USA razzamataz, Italian novelty and Russian kitsch - a genre that has its camp admirers but is a stomach churner for others.

I see, Luigi Bruti's lighter musette and folk-dance pieces did not appeal to you. I understand. Perhaps this style will align more closely with your tastes. I hope you enjoy this a little more: see 1:09 to 1:50.



In my opinion, all the accordion sounds, regardless of my personal taste, are suitable for a digital accordion. The deterrent for me regarding the KORG isn't the accordion or orchestral sounds—which I find fairly impressive—but rather the £6500 price tag. That amount could be allocated to numerous other investments that would be more beneficial to my family and me in the longer term.

it's one reason I like the buttons-and-lights covered cheesy grille on the Korg:

It might not represent the pinnacle of 'timeless' design, but it certainly embodies an industrial aesthetic. Here's hoping it retains its appeal ten years down the line!

 

[Giovanni]

As a Keyboard player, always had a Korg arranger at my side. I hear much of the orchestration I already have. Kind of wish there would be some more demonstrations playing Ballroom music…as that is where I think most accordions players are doing when gigging out…

Hi KeysFla , You are bang on the money with your comment accordion player /entertainers you are a serious gigger with your music and audience's in this situation they want also to dance and sing and have a good time
It all depends on your target Audience . My gigs are not to Elite /Purists accordion Audiences ..................If that is your target good luck to you and I understand that only a real accordion will satisfy you and your Audiences requirements .
I've said this before and I'll say it again ! in the real world of gigs and entertaining ................your main competition is not another accordion player it is a keyboard player i.e arranger type and not afraid to use the bells and whistle on the instruments , backing track singers , singer guitarists etc .
Just my thoughts .............to each his own .
Enjoy what you do that is what is important !!

 

[Thomas N]

That's one opinion. Totally understandable, but here is the problem with it. If digital accordion only copies the acoustic accordion sound and features, why bother?

For me personally, and I've been playing reedless for 30 years:

Weight - My Excelsior 960 is 32 pounds and it's a beast when pulling the bellows for an hour and I'm exhausted. The reedless is so much lighter and maneuverable while still maintaining the full accordion size

Headphones - I often play at 10pm or later. Putting on headphones and playing at full volume and expression is invaluable to me. Or when my wife has people over downstairs I can play in peace upstairs and everybody is happy.

MIDI connectivity - Ability to use an arranger (BK-7M in my case) and have the progressions match the chords in real time. Great for getting timing down and improvising.

Maintenance - My 960 is horribly out of tune. It's time to take it in and spend $500 on a tuning while not having it for a month or longer. Reedless always sounds the same.

Those are the main selling points of a digital reedless accordion for me personally. I am in no way against all of the myriad bells and whistles. Layering a strings sound over some of the accordion parts is nice. A quiet mandolin doubling an accordion treble playing is nice. And I really like the Korg chord hold for the bass side allowing very arranger-like drums and chords feature. I've never gotten along with the drum sounds on the FR-8X and rarely use them. I think I'd really dive into the Korg's abilities in that area.

I know I'm an outlier, but those are my opinions.

 

[KeysFla]

For me personally, and I've been playing reedless for 30 years:

Weight - My Excelsior 960 is 32 pounds and it's a beast when pulling the bellows for an hour and I'm exhausted. The reedless is so much lighter and maneuverable while still maintaining the full accordion size

Headphones - I often play at 10pm or later. Putting on headphones and playing at full volume and expression is invaluable to me. Or when my wife has people over downstairs I can play in peace upstairs and everybody is happy.

MIDI connectivity - Ability to use an arranger (BK-7M in my case) and have the progressions match the chords in real time. Great for getting timing down and improvising.

Maintenance - My 960 is horribly out of tune. It's time to take it in and spend $500 on a tuning while not having it for a month or longer. Reedless always sounds the same.

Those are the main selling points of a digital reedless accordion for me personally. I am in no way against all of the myriad bells and whistles. Layering a strings sound over some of the accordion parts is nice. A quiet mandolin doubling an accordion treble playing is nice. And I really like the Korg chord hold for the bass side allowing very arranger-like drums and chords feature. I've never gotten along with the drum sounds on the FR-8X and rarely use them. I think I'd really dive into the Korg's abilities in that area.

I know I'm an outlier, but those are my opinions.

I am glad for the digital. A stand alone one man band.

 

[John M]

I am glad for the digital. A stand alone one man band.

That's what a few from the audience said to me when I played my 8X a couple of weeks ago at the Octoberfest in Oxford, Ohio.